Tagging Room Secrets Revealed!
by Hack on Dec 4, 2009 8:31 AM CST
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PrintNOTE FROM SCH: You guys are making this blogging thing really easy with fanposts like this - solid explanation on the issue. What I'm not sure now though, is why tagging room was an issue to begin with - was someone originally going to sign a higher cap hit contract?
Also, sorry for my lack of input here lately - I've been training for a new job though that ends with a 16 hour work day today. Then I'm off to Pittsburgh for my first official Hawks game on the road - good times. See you all on Sunday. Go Hawks.
Ok, let me preface this by saying that I'm basing this entire post on TSN's formula, which could turn out to be wrong thereby rendering this fanpost null and void. Let me also say that the point of this post is not to freak anyone out about the hawks 2009, 2010,......2020 etc cap space, please don't turn this into a "oh god who are we going to trade, campbell makes too much money, I heard barker and buff are getting traded to detroit, what am I going to do with my patrick sharp bedsheets when he gets traded" douchefest.........the post is intended to be used for educational purposes.
And one more thing, if your response to this post is going to be "Yo, nerd squad, who cares where the money goes, the hawks are relevant again and that's all you should care about" ........save it, because you're ruining my fun.
Here is McKenzie's article on the Hawks' tagging room situation.
Tagging room is calculated by totaling the dollar values of the contracts that will expire at the end of the season plus the club's available salary cap space that exists today. Whatever that figure is becomes the maximum amount a club may commit to contract extensions for next year.
For the Hawks, the ballpark figure appears to be around $18 million, although it's impossible to get an accurate number. The extensions for the Big Three may run closer to $19 million. So it's conceivable the Hawks need to trim some money to get the extensions officially completed.
Ok, so here comes the fun part.......everyone take out their calculators and let's add the expiring contracts.
Kane - $3,725,000
Toews - $2,800,000
Madden - $2,750,000
Ladd - $1,550,000
Eager - $965,000
Burrish - $712,500
Fraser - $700,000
Dunc - $1,475,000
Hammer - $643,333
Hendry - $625,000
Niemi - $826,875
GRAND TOTAL - $16,772,708
Now we add the current cap space, I decided to go with the acquisition space as opposed to the cap space number (just a guess).
Tagging room = $16,772,708 + $1,620,171 = $18,392,879
As has been documented, Kane at 6.3 mil + Toews at 6.3 mil + Dunc at 5.54 mil = $18,140,000
As we all know $18,140,000 < $18,392,879, the hawks had just enough tagging room, and Kane, Toews, and Keith will all marry beautiful swedish brides which they will all subsequently cheat on.
And yes, I know capgeek isn't gospel and that I may be several thousands of dollars off here or there......deal with it.
I kind of feel like this guy..........but without the magic groupies.
**EDIT***
It is also possible that Curtis Brown's buyout is included as expiring. $16,772,708 + $456,000 = $17,228,708.
If the buyout is included, you could go with the cap space number as opposed to the acquisition number cited on capgeek.
$16,772,708 + $1,620,171 + $1,091,307 + $456,00 = $18,320,015.
This scenario seems more likely. This new number is like $72 g's less than the previously stated number, however this new number still leaves just enough room for Dale Tallon's after lunch strip club visits, which oddly enough, count against the cap..........I mean technically he is "tagging" these young ladies.
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Thanks!
That’s so much more clear now.
However, I do have a question – what does happen as someone mentioned somewhere, if we need to call up someone from Rockford? Does that really count against this? How does that get worked around?
If I can't be a good example, I'll just be a horrible warning
seen further down in the same article
What we do know, though, is that once tagging room has been exhausted, if the club doesn’t find a way to create more — by dumping more longer term contracts — it can be a restrictive nightmare.
Let’s say the Hawks have sufficient tagging room to extend Kane, Toews and Keith but that there’s no wiggle room beyond that. What it means is that the Hawks, if they needed to recall a player from the minors for any reason, could not call up any player who has a contract that goes into next season. That would be a CBA violation — you can’t overspend on tagging room — and not permitted by the league.
As the article says, there is the chance you can really hamstring yourself here. But the article also mentions this:
Of course it’s not as simple as all that. It never is in the salary cap world. A team may increase its tagging room by the amount of the Performance Bonus Cushion, or to the tune of another $4 million or thereabouts. So the Hawks may not be in dire straits here, but the point is it is, at the very least, tight. Very tight. And it may well be the Hawks are not in a position to extend their young stars without moving a body and getting some additional tagging room.
I don’t know what he means by “may increase its tagging room”…….like what, you have to ask politely for it? Capgeek lists the hawks potential performance bonuses at like 5 mil, for whatever that’s worth. As you can tell by McKenzie’s verbiage, he hasn’t really crunched the numbers, but he has looked briefly at them.
All I know is that if I remeber correctly, there was talk about how the Calgary Flames had really screwed themselves during the stretch run and into the playoffs with salary cap issues that gave them little flexibility with injuries and bringing people up. I believe this was even discussed during the hawks Flames round 1 playoff series. I’m still unclear on the fine details, but hopefully this helps you.
"If you're scared, go buy a dog" - Stacey King
On Calgary
I seem to recall toward the end of the season they had games where they dressed 1, 2, or even 3 skaters short due to cap issues. However, I think once playoff time it wasn’t an issue. I don’t know if the rules are different for the playoffs or what, but they definitely were dressing a full roster in the playoffs.
Awesome explanation by the way. It’s been driving me nuts on HNIC and other shows where they’re discussing these issues and then say, “I won’t go into the details of the tagging room rules.” These rules seem to be a key part of how these extensions work out, but I’ve seen very little detail until now on how it all sort of works.
My goal? World domination.
by stickhandler on Dec 3, 2009 11:29 PM CST up reply actions
No cap during the playoffs.
twitter.com/BlackhawksDL
by Original Six on Dec 3, 2009 11:58 PM CST up reply actions
I immediately thought of Calgary after reading that comment too… Things could get tricky if people get hurt – unless there’s something we don’t know (which is very likely), it makes you wonder why they would bother signing these contracts so early… or at least make them official signings rather than under-the-table.
Agreed.
Although I am pretty illiterate when it comes to this type of stuff, if the front office knew that there would be a problem bringing someone up in event of an injury, i seriously doubt they would have made these official. Seems like anytime someone puts hard work into crunching these numbers and figuring out what our options are, along comes some fine print rule that allows things to keep running smoothly.
Regardless, great post, and if you get any more information on Dale Tallon’s favorite spot to eat lunch and be entertained by some of Chicago’s finest, please inform us.
According to my source, Tallon is hitting up
Club O. However, I have yet to deem my source relevant on anything – cough Rosenbloom cough
"What the hell, let's review it." - Dale Tallon
"They are!" - Pat Foley
"What a farce." - Dale Tallon
isn't this why Rockford signed Dan Cloutier to a one-year deal?
because Crawford is signed through next year, having one of the goalies go down will be a nightmare, but now if one of them is injured, the Blackhawks can call up Cloutier, whose cap hit won’t run into next year.
As for forwards, Bickell seems to be the best bet for now. He is an RFA at the end of the year— to be fair, so is Skille, but his hit is higher.
by chiblackhawks on Dec 4, 2009 9:12 AM CST up reply actions
I think this is exactly why, and was about to post the same. Not a bad move. Not one that I enjoy contemplating, but at least he has NHL experience.
looks more like insurance more than anything
Say Huet went down, Niemi’s probably get the start anyway. And to say he’s not bad at all (small sample size notwithstanding) is an understatement.
I actually hope Niemi starts tomorrow. I’m pretty sure the Pens game last year was his first NHL start, and after getting beaten by Malkin on a PP during OT, wouldn’t it be nice to get a win there?
by chiblackhawks on Dec 4, 2009 9:23 AM CST up reply actions
Start?
I thought it was a late game appearance? Nevertheless…maybe throw Niemi in tonight against the Preds and Huey tomorrow night?
"What the hell, let's review it." - Dale Tallon
"They are!" - Pat Foley
"What a farce." - Dale Tallon
sorry, bad word choice
First game, but not his first start. I can’t remember where I read it but I could have sworn they’ve announced Huet as tonight’s starter.
by chiblackhawks on Dec 4, 2009 12:08 PM CST up reply actions
No worries
didn’t mean to be a nit pick either…I guess I wouldn’t mind Niemi vs. the Pittsburgh Crosbies. He has shown he can play up to big game level, i.e. shutout vs. the ’Nucks.
"What the hell, let's review it." - Dale Tallon
"They are!" - Pat Foley
"What a farce." - Dale Tallon
and it looks like we WILL see Niemi in net.
by chiblackhawks on Dec 4, 2009 1:47 PM CST up reply actions
Niemi Saturday
I would rather see the hot goalie play against a division rival, that being Huet…
Yes, I just used Huet and Hot in the same sentance.
I think it would be good to see Niemi against a real strong team, like the Pens.
It's THE GOAALLLIEEE!!!!!
So.....
It appears that the Hawks still can expand the cap by about $5M in salry if needed for emergency siutaions. Nothing to get uposet about.
I think the whole “Tagging Issue” was McDonough Marketing speak for,
We have a really F’n long road trip and we’ll get this Shit done and announced In Chicago Bitches
September 26, 2007 The day a Franchise was reborn.
Amazing post
Thanks for that info sharing, good stuff.
When in Rome we shall do as the Romans, when in Hell we do shots at the bar.
by HolyBlackhawksBatman on Dec 4, 2009 9:06 AM CST reply actions
Wait, there are Patrick Sharp Bedsheets?
Tell me more!
Congratulations on bringing order out of chaos...
…pending, of course, review, vetting, and a seal of approval from Hi, I’m Bob LeDonne.
yeah, you got it right there!! i just revisited that video this afternoon!!! ages well like a fine wine!
by bangbangerang on Dec 4, 2009 1:58 PM CST up reply actions
i guess the one thing i don't quite understand...
…is why is tagging even part of the CBA? Who benefits from it?
As best i can tell, it is put in there for small market teams to prevent larger market teams from buying a bunch of players for 1 year or having too high of roster turnover. Is that right?
Warning: the following is entirely speculation
If I had to guess, I’d say that tagging or something like it is part of the CBA for the following reason:
Imagine I’m the Leafs. I’m having a terrible year, and I’m willing to turn my whole roster over to make certain that next year is not terrible. I also make more money than God, despite my mediocrity (the team is valued at $470MM per Forbes, with gate receipts of $77MM and revenue of $168MM). What if I decided to buy up the contract of every reasonably talented player that comes available from now until June, then pick and choose from among the giant stack of contracts I then own to assemble the most talented team I possibly can? The rest of the contracts (because remember, we’re only buying reasonable talent here, no prospects and few/no marginal players) could be safely traded away for draft picks or in package deals for even bigger talent (two or three or five middling talents for a superstar). Granted, this would be a tremendous pain in the butt, but at the end of all this wheeling and dealing, I would have myself a pretty darn good hockey team. I might have lost some money on it in the short run (actually, a strategy like this would incur fairly large losses), but I’d have a team that could compete for a Cup, and since I make more money than God, I’d pick up the losses over the next few years in the larger gate/merchandizing profits produced by a winning team.
The scenario above is unlikely, but a similar idea on a much smaller scale (buy up a couple of good players, then use the contracts as bargaining chips in the offseason) is scary to small-market teams, because it’s exceedingly likely. It would drive up the price of talent, would ensure that talent flows toward large teams even if they can’t legally pay for it outright, and would disadvantage small teams. Hence: tagging. No fair contracting more players than you theoretically intend to ice.
by spokeinthebandwagon on Dec 4, 2009 11:20 AM CST up reply actions
In this example ...
How would the Leafs simply snatch up reasonably talented players without giving something up in return? You can’t just poach players. They’d give up picks/prospects .. only to try to get other picks/prospects back from other teams? Maybe I’m not understanding your argument.
It seems more likely to me that this is built in to protect teams from their own stupidity. If Team A commits this year to extending a bunch of contracts that places them considerably above next year’s cap, then the GM is essentially hypothesizing that the team will be able to get below the cap in due time no matter what. What happens if we were to extend Ladd and Hjammer, etc., to larger contracts now? this year, nothing. But if we don’t get below the cap in time next year, are those contracts forfeited the next year? No. So if we didn’t manage to get under the cap in time, we forfeit games. Is that in the best interest of the players, the league?
The cap is a binding contract, in essence, and it’s in everyone’s interest—the league’s and the teams’—that any one team doesn’t go beyond that “contract” by any foolishly excessive amount. You don’t want one team holding millions in potentially undeliverable promissory notes.
by ChicoMaki on Dec 4, 2009 12:41 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I would do that in NHL 07
You could trade for a person with one or two more points in their rating, and go up and up, then trade a mid to upper 70 for 2 or 3 50’s or 60’s, do individual trades the same way with each to end up with 3 70’s, who you would then trade for an 80 and a 50, then start the whole process over with the new guy. Then you could trade a couple 80’s for a 90 if you so chose. It was a cheap tactic but incredibly entertaining to see the trade recap for the day, and having seen the same 2 or 3 mid 70’s guys had been traded away from my team like 6 or 7 times.
wait what?
great article
thanks for all of the calculating and mentioning patrick “sexy” sharp bed sheets.
Mr. Gambini, that is a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out explanation...
…overruled
...Feeding Rene Bourque his own dick since 11/19/09
by Hjammer of the Gods on Dec 4, 2009 10:13 AM CST reply actions
one of my favorites
I may even start calling Kane and Toews “the two yutes”
Seriously, how exceptional is Marisa Tomei’s retention of hotness after these many years!?
"If you're scared, go buy a dog" - Stacey King
it’s gotta be some kind of sorcery
...Feeding Rene Bourque his own dick since 11/19/09
by Hjammer of the Gods on Dec 4, 2009 10:40 AM CST up reply actions
Sorcery
Yes, that’s exactly what it is. She stands around a cauldron with Diane Lane and Salma Hayek – who all received their powers from Raquel Welch.
"What the hell, let's review it." - Dale Tallon
"They are!" - Pat Foley
"What a farce." - Dale Tallon
I was thinking this myself...
…while watching “The Wrestler.” Tomei was a flaw in the movie, I thought, as I wasn’t sure I bought her as a washed-up old stripper. Seemed to me that if I was at a club, I’d be more than happy with Tomei’s services.
Seemed more of a role for Daryl Hannah.
Ugh
A reply to hackerar’s Tomei post above. Nothing makes me feel dumber than fucking up a reply, except maybe sitting through a Rick Reilly segment on ESPN.
not even reading the thoughts and speculation of 100 new Blackhawks GMs-in-training every day? Personally, after an ordeal like that, I’m surprised I can do something besides drool all over myself
...Feeding Rene Bourque his own dick since 11/19/09
by Hjammer of the Gods on Dec 4, 2009 10:47 AM CST up reply actions
So much explanation... raising so many more questions.
Is there a complete copy of the CBA somewhere online? Now I’m curious about exactly how the performance bonuses interact with the cap, and about how LTIR interacts with both a player’s cap hit and actual salary paid. I would be interested in seeing the actual language of the agreement.
by spokeinthebandwagon on Dec 4, 2009 11:00 AM CST reply actions
Good point
And great post. I doubt if the short, squirmy, irritating (and irritated) Head Geek would post his secret formula anywhere for others to criticize, edit, and try to make better though. Not that I could wade through all the legal jargon or make any sense out of the math, but I bet some of you could.
"Call Detroit, tell dem... BULLSHIT!"
I think it is safe to assume.......
that Scotty Bowman has the one and only copy of the CBA locked inside a safe, in his office.
"If you're scared, go buy a dog" - Stacey King
furthering this assumption....
Scotty only takes out the CBA to read it to Stan just before bedtime while Stan has himself a bedtime snack consisting of a Hi-C juice box and some Shark Bites…….which everyone knows, are the best fruit snacks.
"If you're scared, go buy a dog" - Stacey King
by Hack on Dec 4, 2009 11:25 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
By creating a fan group who will attend every home game
displaying a banner deftly deploying the dual combination of (d)alliteration and wit.
Something like Madden’s Men. But way better than that.
I be on my green like Irish Spring.
Madden's Madhouse on Madison?
"I fornicate and play hockey, cause ther're the 2 most fun things in cold weather"
wait, better (I think)
Mad Dog’s Madhouse
"I fornicate and play hockey, cause ther're the 2 most fun things in cold weather"
Stop! Print THAT!
You have a gift, my friend. Don’t go putting that in a bushel basket.
Occam's Razor keeps the cutting clean.
by russellguldin on Dec 5, 2009 6:51 AM CST up reply actions
Mad-dog Madden's Mad, Maniacal, Macho, Manly-Man Men of the Madhouse on Madison
If I can't be a good example, I'll just be a horrible warning
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