Controversy over Cheering - Is the Blackhawk fans' tradition disrespectful?
by Matthew Dirt on Mar 17, 2009 3:51 PM CDT
59 comments
This discussion doesn't seem to be going away no matter how much I wish it would since there's a lot of hockey to talk about right now. So I thought I'd at least give people a proper place to discuss it.
The cheering during the anthem is one of the most popular traditions at Blackhawk home games. I think you'd be hard pressed to find many die-hard fans that really dislike it but they're obviously out there.
First, a bit of history:
There are a couple different "origin" stories I've heard but this one seems to be the real one. From NHL.com:
Chicago's anthem tradition began during the 1985 conference finals against Edmonton. After dropping the first two games of the series on the road, Hawks fans entered Chicago Stadium on May 9 fully energized and ready to help their team get back into the series. The crowd was so excited they cheered all the way through the National Anthem — and the tradition stuck.
You can't ever really say that what causes a team to win - but it looks like it may have actually helped the Hawks. After being spanked in the first two games of the series the Hawks came back to win the next two at home before dropping the series in the following two games. The Oilers went on to win the cup that year for the second straight time.
Obviously, the tradition is alive and well almost 25 years later but lets clear something up right from the beginning. This tradition clearly did not start as a form of patriotism. It may have evolved into that but that is not the root of the cheering.
The cheering was a way to keep the crowd into the game and get the players excited. You can cite a huge number of articles where players mention how special the anthem is in Chicago as evidence of that.
Over time, the cheering has evolved into a new way to participate in the anthem. The song is notoriously difficult to sing and makes schmucks like myself sound horrible if I attempt to join in. Standing at attention feels very passive and ends up routine and boring. The solution - I clap, whistle and yell my heart out. When I'm cheering I feel I'm part of the song rather than a simple observer of a moment.
Is it disrespectful to the song/country/flag though? According to Title 36 of the United States Code:
171. Conduct during playing
During rendition of the national anthem when the flag is displayed, all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. Men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should render the military salute at the first note of the anthem and retain this position until the last note. When the flag is not displayed, those present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed there.
While it's worth noting that the code does not mention that the anthem is a time of somber quiet reflection, if you're clapping and cheering, your hand is not over your heart as the code says it should be. So the question becomes, how strictly should we follow this code?
Many of the things in the code are things we take as common sense. For example, the flag should never be flown upside down unless as a signal of dire distress or it should never be allowed to touch the ground.
There are many other codes I'm sure are broken consistently - "When the flag is displayed over the middle of the street, it should be suspended vertically with the union to the north in an east and west street or to the east in a north and south street" or "The flag should never be used as wearing apparel" and "The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever."
There's also the ironic code for that calls for flags no longer fit for display to be burned in a dignified manner.
So I'm guessing most people don't even know this code exists in the first place. That doesn't make it right to break it. However, you're never going to get all Americans to follow every aspect of the code so should we make exceptions?
Yes, technically the cheering during the anthem breaks the code since we do not hold our hands over our hearts. However, I don't follow the line of thinking that this inherently means cheering equals disrespect.
As I said before, cheering makes me feel like I'm part of the song in a way I never ever get at other sporting events. I don't mind if I miss the anthems at other events but if I can't be part of the anthem at the United Center I feel I've missed an important aspect of the experience. When I cheer during the anthem I have not an ounce of malice or disrespect in my mind. My thoughts are on how special the moment is and how excited I am to be participating. Shouldn't that be considered when deciding if it's disrespectful?
With that I'll open the discussion on a special note. Leave out any liberal/conservative bickering. This issue isn't about Democrats, Republicans, Independents or any other political identity. This is about a Hawks tradition.
I'm also attaching a poll to gage people's responses if you don't want to join in the discussion on what is clearly a touchy subject. I'd especially love to get non-Hawks fans opinions on this matter. How do you interpret our tradition?
I'll be keeping an eye on this thread and will close comments for a "cool down" period if things get too heated - so play nice everyone.
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That about sums it up for me.
Citing the flag code for this is sort of like a bible beater citing Deuteronomy when finger pointing The Gays. You pick the one section you agree with, and ignore all the others that haven’t been followed by anyone but the Amish for decades (or centuries).
The bottom line is that the team loves it, the fans love it, and regardless of its origins, ever since the 91 All Star game, it has become an expression of patriotism. If you don’t like it, tough luck. It aint going anywhere.
by chrome on Mar 17, 2009 4:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
good point – I don’t know why I forgot to mention the 91 anthem but a video of it is here in case you want to see it.
Go ahead and tell me those people disrespect America.. I dare you.
by Matthew Dirt on Mar 17, 2009 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Beat me to it
I too was going to mention the ’91 ASG. I was only 11 but to this day I still remember watching that on tv and re-watching it again today still gives me the chills of how awesome it is to not only have our entire stadium cheering for the Hawks but for our great country as well.
I have cheered loud and proud during the anthem at every Hawks game I’ve been at and will continue to do so this season and every season after. GO HAWKS and GOD BLESS AMERICA!
by delorean80 on Mar 17, 2009 4:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't think it's a bad thing. I'm in the military and in no way does that offend me.
The Stars have their own tradition as well (The yelling of “Stars!” anytime the word comes up during the song" and is become a great way to get the fans involved at the beginning of the game. There have been some that say it’s wrong, but it’s something the fans and the team love, so who cares?
However, the Sharks booing when “stars” comes up in the song is wrong.
And whenever I watch video of the 91 ASG, I get chills.
Defending Big D: A Dallas Stars blog on SBN: easy to use, free to join.
by Brandon Worley on Mar 17, 2009 4:44 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It's amazing so please keep doing it!!!
The Anthem will always be part of the Chicago Blackhawks tradition and frankly that makes me happy. It innocent and yet shows a massive amount of respect and loyalty as well as honour to your country. As a Canadian it amazing to see and probably sparked fans to honour ‘O Canada’ the same way in the playoffs and nobody here has even mentioned it to be disrespectful. Honestly those who complain about this really just complain over nothing and are just whine-asses that should get over themselves!!!
by hawks61 on Mar 17, 2009 4:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
People who whine about this...
…may have the law / accepted conventions on their side. But they are missing the point — regardless of the origins, it’s turned into a pride thing. 1991 saw to that. Forest for the trees, these people. We cheer because we kinda sorta like America. An emotion to foster, if you ask me.
Thus: I love it — particularly because I can’t sing a lick.
WAIT FOR THE WHISTLE!
by Sec 326 Bureau Chief on Mar 17, 2009 7:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I would have to agree.
Regardless of your personal morals — after all, morality is subjective and culturally dependent — the intention of cheering during the anthem is in no way disrespectful.
And people are certainly entitled to their opinions on moral matters… until they claim their moral standards to be superior and start prescribing them to other people. The legal argument is ridiculous — those standards are archaic. Why should I have to follow a specific portion of an antiquated code when none of the other specific guidelines are observed?
NOW STOP IT RIGHT HERE
by mjthor on Mar 17, 2009 7:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As for playing the anthem
If we’re to abide by flag code, shouldn’t we then enforce the law on the ice? Jail time or fines for fighting/spearing/slashing? Surely the law takes precedence over guidelines.
I’ve never been clear on why the anthems are sung during professional sports matches anyway — the introduction of ‘God Bless America’ during baseball games has been really peculiar. My point isn’t to disparage the anthem, but why not blast it before movies? They’re
also entertainment. Concerts? Bowling? Golf? Monster truck rallies?
by Stooven on Mar 17, 2009 9:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Good question.
I never really thought about why the anthem is played before sports matches. My guess would be because of the “National” classification of our leagues — they’re not international leagues. But it still begs the question: Why play the anthem? Isn’t the “National” distinction enough? (MLB is the one league where “National” isn’t present in the name — but the two leagues are the National and American leagues.)
Now that I think about it, I can’t think of any other context in which the anthem is played regularly. It seems to be something almost exclusive to sports now… (feel free to disagree with me on that — maybe there’s something I’m not thinking of)
NOW STOP IT RIGHT HERE
by mjthor on Mar 17, 2009 9:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It actually started at a Cubs game… but it was in 1918 before it was even officially named the national anthem. Ken Burns will teach you everything you need to know about anything..
Here’s another reference:
http://www.poppolitics.com/archives/2003/02/The-Sports-Song-of-Patriotism
by Matthew Dirt on Mar 17, 2009 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The SSB aside.............
………..most governmental functions open the the Pledge of Allegiance. In fact, I’ve attended a number of business conferences (who’s topics had nothing to do with our discussion here) where the POA was recited at the start of the day’s events.
And while I don’t know the history, national anthems are played for each gold medal winner at the Olympics. That leads me to believe, that even on a global basis, there is a desire for sovereign recognition through music.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Mar 17, 2009 11:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't ask about the Pledge.
And the Olympics are a sporting event.
NOW STOP IT RIGHT HERE
by mjthor on Mar 18, 2009 7:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's a common theme involved.
That’s why I mention the Pledge. It ties in other day-to-day events and our country’s belief that we should conduct ourselves in a certain fashion.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Mar 18, 2009 8:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
See Bertuzzi, Todd.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Mar 17, 2009 11:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
First of all..............
…………I appreciate chicagokill covering both sides of the debate in the post. Job well done, especially in providing the background for each cause.
As I had stated in a previous post, there is a form of “proper” behavior during the playing of our National Anthem. Truth is, we all likely learned about this in grade school, and certainly any member of the Boy Scouts or like organizations had this subject covered to an even greater degree. Proper respect for the flag and the SSB should not be a surprise to any of us.
I’ll grant you, it’s not “vogue” these days to cover ones heart during the anthem, but then again, this should not be an issue of popularity. It should be each of our DESIRES to do this, because in making our claim in this great nation, we owe much to those who have passed before us. So when the SSB is playing, is it asking too much that we give our attention for a few short minutes to cherish our heritage in a dignified fashion? Is it really so tough to support these allegedly archaic concepts as a way to connect as Americans for just a few moments? In my humble opinion, it’s the very least we can do.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Mar 17, 2009 11:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You're absolutely entitled to your opinion,
but I think you’re neglecting the fact that not everyone holds the same opinion as you. Morality is subjective.
I don’t necessarily have a problem with what you’re arguing, it’s how you’re arguing it. Should we do everything our government asks us without question “because they said so?” That’s a very pre-conventional way of viewing morality. And sorry, but for the majority of people, their individual conceptions of morality have progressed past the black-or-white, “this is right; this is wrong,” “because I said so” rationale that’s taught to us in grade school.
So again, you may personally find cheering during the anthem to be immoral, and that’s fine. But when you tell me that I’m immoral for cheering during the anthem, that’s where the problem lies.
NOW STOP IT RIGHT HERE
by mjthor on Mar 18, 2009 8:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is an appropriate way..............
…………to take exception with our government. Is acting like a yahoo during our country’s anthem the way to “get ’er done?” Somehow I don’t think anyone in Washington or Springfield is listening.
Further, are you saying Hawks fans do this as a means of showing their dissatisfaction with our nation’s status quo? I think we both know that’s not the case.
So I don’t find a valid connection between “public insurrection” and the UC opening events. You are citing “morality” when the post reflects guidelines that have passed the tests of our federal government. You can conveniently take a tangent position, but it doesn’t change facts.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Mar 18, 2009 8:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
Not once did I say or even suggest that ‘Hawks fans cheer during the anthem as a form of protest. I’m talking about morality because that’s where your argument lies.
As far as our government defining our morals and behavior — this is the same country and government that passed the three-fifths compromise; the same government that legalized “separate but equal” under Plessy v. Ferguson; the same government that has had a number of ridiculous statutes and regulations since its conception. Where would we be now if nobody ever questioned those decisions?
And again, I’m not saying cheering during the anthem is a form of protest. However, you’re suggesting that we blindly obey everything our government tells us to do.
I’d hate to hear your opinions of other cultures…
NOW STOP IT RIGHT HERE
by mjthor on Mar 18, 2009 8:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me set the table.
You claim the cheering at the UC is a “moral issue”.
You believe we should not be fettered by our governments edicts.
Meanwhile, I’ve never suggested “we blindly obey everything our government tells us to do”, nor have I said the actions at the UC are (or are not) a matter of morality.
Nonetheless, the government mandates a specific type of behavior during the anthem and you seem to suggest Hawks fans have the moral right to reject same.
I’m citing the law and you keep raising morality.
Frankly, it is our role as citizens to challenge the status quo. That said, I believe there are some “sacred cows”, the anthem and flag to name a very select few.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Mar 18, 2009 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let ME set the table.
Laws = morals.
NOW STOP IT RIGHT HERE
by mjthor on Mar 18, 2009 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if I didn't make it clear enough: our government has come up with some pretty shitty laws in the past.
This is like trying to have a theological discussion with an Evangelical Christian. No matter what you try to say to them, they’re always going to use the “God clause” — that is, you’ll always be wrong because I have “God” on my side.
Replace “God” with the American government, and you have your argument. And I’m sorry, but I’m never going to blindly accept a law from our government — a government which has bombed its own citizens and has a history of institutionalized racism, amongst other things — without first questioning it. I’m not saying the American government is inherently evil, but fuck, I’m not going to buy everything they tell me. Citizens who don’t question their government is how we end up with fascism.
NOW STOP IT RIGHT HERE
by mjthor on Mar 18, 2009 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So by inference..........
……….the law that states one should hold their right hand over their heart during the playing of our National Anthem is, well, ahem, “shitty”?
And further, it may not necessarily be morals that guide Hawks fans, but their utter disdain for these shitty laws?
OH GREAT PATRIOTS, UNITE!! Flag burning at 11………
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Mar 18, 2009 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes.
Because we all go to the United Center thinking, “Fuck the government!”
You’re really missing the point here, and I’m really tired of trying to explain it to you — and this is coming from a teacher.
NOW STOP IT RIGHT HERE
by mjthor on Mar 18, 2009 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I'm missing the point.............
……….it’s because you’re not making it well. I’ve merely taken things you’ve stated and “connected the dots”. It may not be what you are hoping to convey, but what’s the point of citing “Plessy v Ferguson” unless you are prepared to stand by the claim as it relates to our discussion.
Of course the government has passed “dumb laws”, but is that relevant to respect for the flag? Are the flag rules stupid and have no modern purpose? This is what I’m taking away from your argument, but please correct me if I’m wrong by proffering better examples.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Mar 18, 2009 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you can't see how those examples relate to the discussion,
then we’re done here.
NOW STOP IT RIGHT HERE
by mjthor on Mar 18, 2009 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know............
……..“uncle” when I see it.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Mar 18, 2009 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed 100%.
So, if Hawks fans are acting based on their own moral high ground, why don’t they do something more to change the legal status quo? Wouldn’t this be their duty as patriotic Americans? Many of them are cheering because, as they say, they’re patriotic, so does it not stand to reason they should take this to a higher level?
Why not make the Hawks opening ceremonies the standard for America. Jump on it, Hawks fans. Remember, a one man band is a clown, but a collection of musicians is a beautiful symphony.
But that’s not the case, is it. They’d rather eschew the law, and, for that matter, our country’s moral standing on the subject.
By the way, laws = morals might also = religion, but we shouldn’t go there.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Mar 18, 2009 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Proper" behavior
The fact that you’re at a HOCKEY GAME and cheering for the Anthem as an open display of affection for your Country isn’t necessarily inappropriate. If you want to pay what you owe to those who passed before us, then shouldn’t we play “Taps” also?
I wouldn’t cheer during the Anthem at a military cemetery, but the cheering of the Anthem at a Blackhawks game, especially given the context of its origin, I feel is entirely appropriate.
Just as a side note, if you go to a baseball game between the Sox and Blue Jays, they play both anthems. The players keep their hats over their hearts for both, as do most fans.
“Proper” behavior would be, hat over heart for your anthem, hat at side for other country’s anthem, as a show of respect.
The only player I ever saw get this right was Pete Rose.
HOCKEENIGHT.COM...home of FRIDAY NIGHT FIGHTS and LEAVE IT TO BETTMAN...now with PODCASTING!!!
by Forklift14 on Mar 18, 2009 6:41 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think it's been well-established................
………that the “origin” you speak of has in no way links the Anthem to the military to patriotism, etc. That’s pure folly that makes some of you “feel better” about your behavior.
Meanwhile, you mention other venues where the Anthem is played and Old Glory displayed and fully admit you wouldn’t behave rudely in these locations. I see a lot of contradiction in your views.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Mar 18, 2009 8:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you think having one behavior at a hockey game and another at a military cemetery is a “contradiction”, then we’re done here.
HOCKEENIGHT.COM...home of FRIDAY NIGHT FIGHTS and LEAVE IT TO BETTMAN...now with PODCASTING!!!
by Forklift14 on Mar 18, 2009 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
How about a Sox/Jays game?
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Mar 18, 2009 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Freedom
The last time I checked, we are a country founded on freedom of expression. It’s a tradition in Chicago and I have no problem with fans yelling & clapping during the anthem. If there are some people who dislike what you do, maybe they should try living in a “less free” society. Maybe at that time they would realize that the freedoms we enjoy are not seen anywhere else in the world. Besides, if they really don’t like it, tell them to watch the game from the confines of their home.
While, I support your way of expressing your passion for your team, I’m not too sure if it would be considered acceptable to do this during an away game in another arena. Respect is the name of the game. Good-natured ribbing comes with the game. Disrespecting others traditions and, dare I say, reverence for something is just wrong.
It almost sounds as if some fans in Chicago have confused passion for a sports team with patriotism. If those fans want to show their “patriotism”, tell them to do to the airport to welcome back our troops when they return from overseas deployments. After all… this is a sporting event, not a funeral.
So, in closing I say, “Keep on, keepin’ on!!!”…. and Go CBJ!!!
by CBJfan on Mar 18, 2009 7:12 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Nobody does it at away games, though.
… at least not that I know of.
NOW STOP IT RIGHT HERE
by mjthor on Mar 18, 2009 7:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just as nobody chants “Right Field Sucks” at Cub road games, or sings “Na Na Hey Hey Goodbye” at Sox road games.
HOCKEENIGHT.COM...home of FRIDAY NIGHT FIGHTS and LEAVE IT TO BETTMAN...now with PODCASTING!!!
by Forklift14 on Mar 18, 2009 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if we're comparing team chants and slogans............
…………to our country’s National Anthem, then we’re done here.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Mar 18, 2009 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
While I can't endorse the Jackets..............
…………I fully support the comments made in your last two paragraphs.
It’s funny that many in this post support their behavior by referencing the Constitution, an extremely old document that apparently isn’t outdated, yet when the relative fledgling “Flag Code” is cited, that government document is considered by same to be a bit antiquated.
Lemme supply the forks so these folks can not only have their cake, but can eat it too……….
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Mar 18, 2009 8:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tvile..
This conversation is all over the place so rather than reply I thought I’d post a new comment here with another way of looking at things.
As a kid I always heard the rumor that belching after a meal was actually considered a compliment to the chef in some countries (usually Japan). I have no idea if it’s true but for arguments sake, lets say it is.
So if I go to Japan, after a meal, I belch and it’s sign of respect. If I’m in Sweden, I’m not going to belch because it’s considered rude.
A similar thing happens in the united center for Hawks games. There – I cheer during the anthem because it’s turned into a way to show respect, pride, excitement… whatever.
If I go to Sox game or see the Hawks on the road, I don’t cheer because it’s not a sign of respect there.
Now, please don’t say I’m comparing the anthem to burping – you seem to miss the point of comparisons sometimes…
by Matthew Dirt on Mar 18, 2009 10:43 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually, I think others.............
………….are missing the gravity of such comparisons.
Being rude to a table full of people is far different than being rude to America.
I understand the point you are trying to make, and I think it strengthens the core of my position.
Hawks fans DON’T see this as a big deal (legalities aside), and I suspect it is because they don’t think about the “other side” as I’m trying to portray. I’m grounding my position in fact/law while the pro-cheer side is highly attached to emotion. It’s tough to rectify the situation based on that foundation.
Anyway, I agree that we’ve likely beaten the point to death, and I wasn’t expecting to change the flow of business on Madison Ave when the Hawks take the ice. That said, your poll did expose others who think the tradition has some flaws, and at the very least, if the masses will take a moment to think about the “other side” the next time they hear the anthem, then we can all take something away form this exchange.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Mar 18, 2009 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're grounding your position in an utterly ludicrous law that isn't enforced and is designed to protect an arbitrary symbol.
All I’m saying is that your suggestion that we should do whatever the government tells us to do because the government says we should do it is ridiculous. The italicized part is where I have a problem with your argument and precisely why I cited the stages of moral development. I don’t have a problem with doing what the government asks of me, so long as I believe what the government is asking of me to be just.
And frankly, I don’t find esoteric and antiquated “laws” that dictate my personal behavior in the interest of artificially boosting the symbolic power of flag to be just.
Is this making any sense to you? I’m not disagreeing with your opinion that cheering is immoral, I’m disagreeing with the fact that you’re saying everyone should behave in the same exact manner and robotically follow everything the government says. I don’t know any other way to explain this to you.
NOW STOP IT RIGHT HERE
by mjthor on Mar 18, 2009 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am understanding your position a bit better, however...........
…………for you, personally, is the government’s edict regarding the flag/anthem unjust?
And the flag is an “arbitrary symbol”. NOW STOP IT RIGHT THERE!
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Mar 18, 2009 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, it most certainly is.
I’ll do whatever I please with a piece of colored cloth or during a piece of music.
NOW STOP IT RIGHT HERE
by mjthor on Mar 18, 2009 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your position is crystal clear.
Pardon me, gotta go. I’m meeting Rick Monday for lunch.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Mar 18, 2009 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But, in order for it to be 'rude to America',
Americans would have to find it rude. Seems to me that the vast majority of people who actually attend a Hawks game and experience the anthem walk away with a different opinion.
The Winter Classic was a nationally televised game with some of the biggest ratings the NHL has seen in years. Yet, not only did the incredible cheering during the anthem not provoke an outcry, it was cited as many non-Chicagoans as a highlight of the successful event.
You’re tilting at windmills, Quijote.
by chrome on Mar 18, 2009 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait a minute.
On one hand it was inadmissible to proffer “the majority” as a reason for doing anything.
Now it’s being stated that many have developed a “different opinion” about the anthem.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Mar 18, 2009 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So I take it you concede its hard to contest
Chicagokill’s point. You can’t consider something rude if the supposed offended persons don’t consider it rude themselves. Americans don’t seem to have a problem with it. You do. So don’t pretend to speak for the rest of the country.
by chrome on Mar 18, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I concede..........
……..you can’t have it both ways. I was citing the majority previously only to be told such a position was invalid.
You might want to legitimately poll people outside of your own back yard. I am quite confident America would not see eye to eye with the practice.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Mar 18, 2009 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Was there an outcry to the Winter Classic that I missed?
Lots of people saw it, even outside the ol backyard. Lots of people wrote about it. Lots of people mentioned the anthem. Yet I don’t remember anyone saying anything negative about it.
Surely if tville’s America were offended, it would have brought down a fury onto Blackhawk fans not seen since Janet Jackson’s Super Nipple.
by chrome on Mar 18, 2009 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a good way of looking at it.
The reality is this – if you really want the anthem to be respected – don’t play it before EVERY single sporting event, so much so that it has lost meaning in basically every other venue except the United Center before Hawks games.
by chrome on Mar 18, 2009 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interestingly enought..............
………..it’s the United Center where the anthem HAS lost its meaning, at least in the eyes of the law.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Mar 18, 2009 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bring some handcuffs to the next game, Chief.
by chrome on Mar 18, 2009 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That makes no sense.
It’s much simpler to lock the UC doors from the outside.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Mar 18, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your position is crystal clear.
Pardon me, gotta go. I’m meeting Rick Monday for lunch.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Mar 18, 2009 12:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
My first Hawk game was in '71 or '72
and we sat up in the rafters and I clearly recall cheering during the anthem although it might not have been the entire stadium. I also heard some of the worst language in my life directed at the opposing Flyer’s Dave Schultz and his crew. As a 9 year old that was eye opening. The cheering seems more a celebration than disrespectful.
In that game Magnuson and I believe it was Schultz got into 3 fights within the first 10 minutes of the game and we’re both ejected. The 3rd fight was when both came out of the penalty box prior to their penalties being over and went at it again. I was hooked.
by Duck99 on Mar 19, 2009 6:23 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
There is nothing wrong with...
cheering during the anthem. I think sitting there like a zombie during the anthem is worse than cheering.
by massey1984 on Mar 19, 2009 9:30 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
This has just made me a Blackhawks fan
Ok,
I have never rooted for a Chicago team before, ever. I despise the Bears and am not overly fond of the Cubs or the Bulls either. The White Sox don’t suck as bad as the rest but that doesn’t mean I root for them.
That being said, I was in school in ‘91 and I well remember the TV commentators saying how 95% of the country were behind the troops. I wonder if I wasn’t in school with the other 5% and I well remember being told not to wear my uniform on campus because of “safety concerns.” Seeing this video and reading that this has been going on since ’85 and maybe sooner means a lot!
While I was raised with the whole stand-face-the-flag-and-put-your-hand-over-your-heart I hope this is one tradition that never goes away. This is the 1st year I’ve followed hockey at all since the Flames were in Atlanta and I think I just found a new team to root for. Go Hawks!
by Rick J on Nov 28, 2009 7:32 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
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