Wings fan, comin' a trollin'!
Actually, I'm kidding. While I am a fan of the team that has suddenly become the enemy for you guys, I hope you'll let me stick around, and not Scum me to death too much. Ask the folks over at Pensburgh, I'm not too bad a guy....they let me stick around all year, even after the Wings beat their guys while I was hanging out on their board during last year's SCF.
I scribbled the following as a response to the Ric Flair thread, but it got long enough, and I think useful enough as a conversation starter to merit a fanpost. Hope you'll agree....
Some of the references are to that thread, but I didn't go back and edit...as it's 1:45 AM, I hope you'll forgive me).
If it helps, (if someone tells me how to post a pic from my own computer) I can post a slightly fuzzy pic of Adam Burish from the night he led Wisconsin to the NCAA title as a pre-peace offering....
That said, take a look at what I'm thinking about this year's WCF series, and let me know where you think I'm a moron, or where you might even (*GASP!*) agree with me.
Wings fan, secondarily a Pens fan from hanging out at Pensburgh since last year's SCF and throughout this season, thinking both those teams will win their respective series' in 6 games.
The fact that I think the Wings will win scares me, since pessimism has served me very well over the past three years. The only time I thought the Wings would have an easy time of it was the 07 WCF, and the Ducks took us down that year.
So at least I can take small comfort in the thought that I don't think this will be an easy series by any stretch.
Lest you think I'm trolling (which some of ya will think regardless), here's my rationale: it starts with experience, with the Red Wings knowing how to win, and the Hawks being maybe a year or two away from having that same...foundation...not sure if that's the word I'm looking for. Your kids, and I say that fondly, because I'm up in Madison, WI, and the Blackhawks are the only team I can hear on over the air radio, grew up a lot in that first round series, and definitely impressed with the way they took out the Canucks, but you haven't had that bitter growing, learning experience yet that a lot of championship teams go through before rising to the top. Think of Jordan's Bulls coming up short against the experienced Bad Boys, taking their lumps in 89 and 90, before learning what it takes, and ruling the rest of the 90s. There might be an analogous succession in place going on here, with the same two cities involved (though I don't see any NHL team ever taking 6 out of 8 titles any more, too much parity, too much pressure on the shoulders of a single man, the goalie).
The second factor is that while the Wings are facing a much better rounded offensive team in the Hawks than they saw in the Ducks, the Hawks, while big, and capable of physicality, do not hit as much as the Ducks. Even as the Wings face better offensive pressure, so too will the Blackhawks. Calgary and Vancouver score 3.06 and 2.92 goals a game during the regular season...Detroit scored 3.52.
The stats from the site below can be used to show that the Blackhawks also score more than the Ducks (~3.2-2.9 as I posted above somewhere), and that the Hawks have a better goals against than Detroit....but as Chrome said (in the Ric Flair thread), nobody's expecting this series to feature a ton of 2-1 games. It's gonna be all about offense, and Detroit's scoring machine is second to none in the NHL.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm?fetchKey=20092ALLAAAAll&sort=avgGoalsPerGame&viewName=summary
The third leg of my argument comes, and I'm serious here, in the form of Chris Osgood. The man has won two cups as a #1 goaltender, and I believe would have won a third if Scotty Bowman had enough trust in him to start the playoffs in 1997. You compile all his stats together, and they're pretty much Hall of Fame numbers. And yet, he gets ripped, not only by opposing fans, but by Wings fans, too. You can say that he's not an elite goalie, and the GA stats might back you up, but he's a gamer, and more than that, he's a playoff performer with a proven track record. We Wings fans have gone through hell with this guy, starting with the 94 playoff series against the Sharks, where he throws a puck up the boards, right to Jamie Baker who makes no mistake in breaking our hearts...but he's also taken us to the heights of Mt. Stanley in 1998, as well as 2008. I'm perfectly happy to put our hopes on his shoulders yet again.
What gives me pause in this series is the Hawks offensive capabilities: it's not just that you guys can score, but that you can play a game that can match the Wings' own style. There's enough skill on the Hawks, lines 1-4, to keep up with the Red Wings offensively.
The fact that your team is younger, and far better rested (and less bruised up for not having to play the Ducks) is also a cause for concern, and I wouldn't be entirely surprised to see Chicago steal one of the first two games at the Joe (I'm thinking the Hawks steal game 1).
A third factor that will not get mentioned by the Versus types: Chicago really gets into their series, really generates hatred for the opponent...Detroit's a more cerebral type team, but the Hawks dragged the Flames into playing their mind games, and it's possible they can do the same to the Wings, to some degree.
Khabibulin also worries me to some degree....but....this isn't 2004. The fact that Vancouver lit him up for about 18 goals in a 6 game series
makes him less scary than he might have been, or was 3-5 years ago.
In the end, this is what it's going to come down to: as physical as the Hawks can be, they don't hit as much as the Ducks, and the don't play as dirty as Anaheim. The Red Wings have withstood that barrage, and survived, and I think the Red Wings will find more room to roam than they did against Anaheim, and they will make Chicago pay for it. I'm of the opinion that that will ultimately count for more than the youthful exuberance, and fresher legs of the Blackhawks, and allow the Red Wings to take the series in 6.
From the Red Wings perspective, I think it will go LWWLWW for the 4-2 final tally.
Would love to hear your opinion on this analysis.
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Hardly trolling
When you back it up with this much analysis.
I don’t think the series will come down to physical play as much as it will come down to tempo and discipline.. Nobody, not even the Pens, can play river hockey with the Hawks for 60 minutes over 7 games.
If your guys are able to set up in the box in the offensive zone, especially on the power play, things won’t go that well here. The Hawks need to play a smart, disciplined game, to stay out of the box.
HOCKEENIGHT.COM...home of FRIDAY NIGHT FIGHTS and LEAVE IT TO BETTMAN...now with PODCASTING!!!
We don't like trolls
Especially ones that are under the Bridges in Detroit. I really feel my beloved Hawks have got a little payback in mind for you. This is going to be a physical series. When Buff knocks Osbad into the middle of next week, you’ll wish you were playing a Junior hockey team. There ain’t gonna be no darn OT games, where we give you a second chance. Smash Mouth hockey. Remember the way the Flyers banged their way to the Cup? Maybe not. You’re probably not even 25 years old. So when the Scum starts running out of band-aids, don’t come over to our side of the rink to borrow any. And keep what remaining teeth you have in your hotel room. Beloved Blackhawks will win in 5 games, 6 if we want the extra TV money. Scum
"It was a wise Man that invented Beer" (Plato)
I might have been born when the Flyers won their first Cup….depends on how late into the spring the playoffs went in 1975, my birthday’s next week….but obviously I don’t remember that. I do recall how Philly tried to replicate that team with Lindros hitting everything in sight, and got swept in 1997.
But I do have an inkling of the hockey hell you guys have been through the last 15 years….because when I became a fan of the Red Wings, it was pre-Steve Yzerman, it was the Dead Things era, 40 points in an entire season, Nick Polano behind the bench (which, true, did occur after Yzerman’s arrival).
Back then, with Edmonton ruling the roost, with Probert dashing drunkenly across the border for coke willy nilly, it took years for Detroit to rise from also ran to contender, and then years further to overcome the playoff yips. That’s an experience the Hawks youngsters haven’t had yet. It’s easier these days, with the salary cap in place, for a team to do a meteoric rise, if the management’s right, if a little good fortune falls your way in the draft (you don’t believe me, click on the link posted yesterday about the Toews/Erik Johnson debate going on at the Blues blog, and have a rueful chuckle after reading about the golf cart incident). Rocky’s doing right for you guys, Kane and Toews and Burish and Byfuglien are leading the way…but it’s not your time yet.
The old guys still have a fight left in ‘em, and this series won’t be that proverbial last stand.
And that's what the Islanders thought in 1984...
…everybody meets their maker, it’s just they way it is! A major change is coming is terms of power in the Central Division with the emergence of the Hawks, Blues, and Blue Jackets. This series, in years down the road, may be the turning point in the reversal of a power shift- the beginning of one in Chicago and the end of one in Detroit!!!
Islanders...
Pretty much knew their heyday was coming to an end during the Drive for Five (hell, I got Finals tickets at Nassau Mausoleum day-of-game at Ticketron). The Wings will go all-in next season before they get cap-strangled.
But the paradigm is indeed shifting, and I think along with the Hawks, Blues and BJs, the Preds merit mention, since they almost got some extra hockey this year as well.
HOCKEENIGHT.COM...home of FRIDAY NIGHT FIGHTS and LEAVE IT TO BETTMAN...now with PODCASTING!!!
Nice
A Wings fan with a head on their shoulders? No way… Just kiddin’. I have to agree with Hockeenight on this and suggest the absolute key to the entire next round for the Hawks will be playing disciplined hockey and staying out of the box. For the love of sweet baby heyzeuss – STAY OUT OF THE BOX!
You’d be pressed to find a Hawks fan who still thinks their team is young and inexperienced. That was last month. Now we are Stanley Cup contenders so other than the aforementioned, are youth is our ally. Hawks were certainly one of the highest scoring teams in both the regular season and playoffs but I’m not sure how much weight that stat holds at this point.
Khabby and Osgood (who does get shit on like a park bench beneath a pigeon roost) each have the ring or rings and are playing fine enough for the style of game in front of them.
If your analysis falls short anywhere I think it is in the physical and hitting dept. Not only do I think we are already playing at a physical level (both dishing it out AND taking it) that should be frightening to your geriatrics ward, but I am extremely confident that this part of our game will continue to expand as the boys dig in their heels and begin to realize their own capabilities of this aspect of their playoff game. In other words, I hope your team is thinking like you. They are in for a world of surprise and hurt if they are.
Hawks in 5. Period.
"Call Detroit, tell dem... BULLSHIT!"
To wit
Buff leads all playoff hitters with 55 after Monday’s game… but shshshshshshsh… don’t tell yer boys.
"Call Detroit, tell dem... BULLSHIT!"
If anyone thinks you're trolling, they're a fucking moron.
That was some great analysis, and while I won’t respond to the content of it (I just woke up, and other have already said what I would have said and more), I’ll just say that an opposing fan’s rational perspective is always welcome.
NOW STOP IT RIGHT HERE
eh, I just threw that in the subject to try and draw some eyes…I’ve been keeping an eye on SCH since the start of the playoffs, just never joined in the fun…figure between the wrestling references and the occasional nods to metal, I can fit in here just fine, even if I am cheering for the other red team….
That was some great analysis!
That’s not trolling that is really giving a opinion with statistical data to back it up so good work!
In my opinion though I think the Hawks will win in 6! For no other reason that I think fatigue will play a factor in the end of this series. For example, let’s take a trip down memory lane shall we and go back to 1996 when the 62 win heavily favoured Red Wings coming off a Yzerman double OT Game 7 win over St.Louis ran into a very young and unproven Avalanche squad. The Blues coached by Keenan were very similar to the Ducks in their tactics with the Wings and bruised them all series long and though it didn’t show it effects in the series it reared it’s ugly head in the Wings series with the Avs. Yzerman had trouble recovering from a bad knee, their defence was hampered severley with injuries and Osgood was forced to make far more saves than he was normally accustomed to. The Hawks in many ways remind me of those 96 Avs in that they didn’t have much playoff experience or players in that matter except for a few like Lemieux and most importantly Roy. And just like Roy was the backbone of experience for the Avs, Khabibulin is for the Hawks- another Cup winning goaltender. And in the end the youthful exuburance of the Avs pounded away the fatigued Wings in 6 with Roy playing a major role with a major offensive contribution from Sakic, the young captain wearing #19- sounds familiar?
Although this may sound irrelevant sometimes when a series unfolds one thinks back ‘where have we seen this before’? And if the Hawks take control of this series and ultimately win I’m sure many will point back to 1996 for similarities.
All in all this should be an exciting and nervous 2-3 weeks of hockey for who wins this series will most likely, in my mind anyways, win the Stanley Cup!!!
Familiar enough to the point that now you’re scaring me.
Although, I will disagree with you on one point, the Avalanche were not entirely unproven at that point. I only say that because that year, before the season started, I predicted that the Nordilanche would get to the Stanley Cup Finals upon moving to Colorado.
Of course…I hadn’t taken into account that they were also moving to the Western Conference when I made that prediction, so in a way, I may have jinxed the Wings.
That aside, that’s a frightening comparison, one I’m hoping doesn’t hold up 13 (ooooh spooky!) years later….
For neil.
I’m not shaving till the series is over. GO hawks, indian chief, leader of the war against Detroit. (met. area 4,344,000) Let the river flow black & red.
ughhh… the experience argument. yet. again.
by runningquicklynowhere on May 15, 2009 3:24 PM CDT reply actions
I kinda like it
worked fuckin’ great for us with Calgary and Vancouver pundits.
"Call Detroit, tell dem... BULLSHIT!"
except with those guys...
…they don’t have Stanley Cups to go with the experience….difference between a veteran team and one that’s climbed the mountain and knows how to win it all.
Correct me if I'm wrong
But they do still play hockey in the Conference Finals, yes? You can excuse the absurdity of the question, as I was only 8 the last time the Hawks had advanced that far, but why is the experience that all of these Hawks have gained playing hockey since they could walk considered unimportant all of the sudden? I’m beginning to think that “knowing what it takes to win” in these situations is just another “hockey answer.”
I’ve followed the playoffs as closely as possible and not one series have I heard anyone say afterward “We were less talented than them, but we just had more experience.” Talent still wins games, experience is only staying calm with your back against the wall. Which the Hawks have certainly proven they can do lately.
If you can only “climb the mountain” after you’ve already been to the top then how do you get to the top in the first place?
except the response was beside the point, so reopen the set and match
In this case, I was comparing the experience of the Red Wings, who’ve won the stanley cup, to the veteran teams that Vancouver and Calgary have, who haven’t won that holy grail.
Just saying that the Red Wings have something extra in the arsenal that the hawks first and second round opponent did not have.
And if you want to compare the relative talent levels of the Blackhawks and Red Wings…..go right ahead…
Another angle
I might argue that the Wings are who they are – and we all know who they are. Yet another exciting concept with this Hawks team (and I assume we are talking about these very teams, right here, right now, because both Calgary and Vancouver have a few players who have hoisted the Cup), is that no-one, not (especially not?) even couch statisticians have a clue as to what this Hawks team is capable of. So on that note of relative logic… perhaps it is in fact the Blackhawks who have that something “extra in the arsenal.” If you look at Calgary and Vancouver’s playoff experience alone, a month ago that was supposedly the “something extra in the arsenal” of those two teams. Sorry, but you’re going to have an awfully hard time selling the experience angle with these fans. Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to drink a bunch of tequila, come home, sleep, and then wake up and fasten my seatbelt.
"Call Detroit, tell dem... BULLSHIT!"
ok, then, to distill it down to basest levels, the reason that Detroit should win, according to the on paper analysis, is that the Red Wings have a rather impressive combination of that “special stash” experience along side a top shelf Russian vodka worth of talent, while Calgary and Vancouver fall short of the Wings on both counts…kinda like this crappy French vodka I got because it was so much cheaper.
Who knows what the Hawks have in them, they’re going from out of the playoffs to a shot at the brass ring?
I think the on paper analysis will hold up. But the series isn’t gonna play out on paper, nor with funny shaped dice, so…strap yourselves in, boys and girls, and may the best team win.
Osgood
From what I saw, Osgood didn’t look so great. CBJ and ANA were 21st and 14th, respectively, in scoring this year. No goalie has had a softer playoff path (CGY and VAN were 8th and 11th.)
The Hawks broke Luongo, who is a great goalie.
This series could set a record for scoring.

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