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Road trip comparison! Goalies and Defensive Numbers

Once again, GMH has come through with a solid post looking at some key statistics for the Circus Trip and what ever the hell we want to call this recently completed trip.  It's a great read and there's plenty of room to jump in with your own theories on things as some people have already done in the comments.  Also, a note to GMH - sorry for the one slight change... we're not allowed to curse in our headlines. 

I wanted to throw up this fanpost before I lost steam from last night's rage-fest; it's nothing fancy, just a cursory look at the data from the Blackhawks' two major road trips this season. Shot differential, special teams, goaltending, and--probably the most interesting part of this--partial confirmation of our suspicions that the defense has been lacking lately.

The Circus Trip spanned 9 days and the team traveled well over 5000 miles; they won the first four games almost at a trot before losing a bit of steam in SoCal, eventually taking 9 points out of a possible 12. The just-concluded freakshow (we need a name for this) covered 14 days and roughly 8000 miles, and the 'Hawks earned 10 points out of a possible 16, which is just about what most people expected from them. The numbers, however, aren't exactly brilliant in comparison to the Circus Trip:

.

Road Trip 1 S SA DIFF GF CHI S% OPP SV% GA OPP S% SG SV% RESULT

.

CGY (A) 26 28 -2 7 0.269 0.73 1 0.036 Huet 0.964 W

.

EDM (A) 30 27 3 5 0.167 0.83 2 0.074 Huet 0.926 W

.

VAN (A) 17 30 -13 1 0.059 0.941 0 0 Niemi 1 W

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SJS (A) 41 24 17 7 0.17 0.83 2 0.083 Huet 0.917 W

.

ANA (A) 28 34 -6 0 0 1 3 0.088 Huet 0.912 L **

.

LAK (A) 33 22 11 1 0.03 0.97 1 0.045 Huet 0.955 SOL

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Averages 29.2 27.5 1.7 3.5 0.116 0.884 1.5 0.054 0.946

.

.

Road Trip 2 S SA DIFF GF CHI S% OPP SV% GA OPP S% SG SV% RESULT

.

CBJ (A) 31 26 5 6 0.194 0.806 5 0.192 Huet 0.808 W *

.

DET (A) 29 38 -9 3 0.103 0.897 3 0.079 Niemi 0.921 SOW

.

OTT (A) 30 18 12 1 0.033 0.967 4 0.222 Huet 0.778 L **

.

CGY (A) 28 20 8 3 0.107 0.926 1 0.05 Niemi 0.95 W

.

VAN (A) 44 28 16 1 0.023 0.977 5 0.179 Niemi, Huet .75, .875 L **

.

EDM (A) 37 24 13 4 0.108 0.892 2 0.083 Huet 0.917 W *

.

SJS (A) 39 37 2 4 0.103 0.897 3 0.081 Huet 0.919 OTW *

.

CAR (A) 41 24 17 2 0.049 0.951 4 0.167 Huet 0.833 L

.

Averages 34.9 26.9 8 3 0.09 0.91 3.4 0.137 0.864

  1. We can start with goaltending, but let's not beat the dead horse deader, agreed? Save percentage was subpar (below .850) in half of the games on Road Trip 2, resulting in three losses (Ottawa, Vancouver, and Carolina) in which the 'Hawks outshot their opponents by an average of 15 per game. The average save percentage dropped 8.2%. Niemi was very very good in two wins (Detroit, Calgary), as was Huet (Edmonton, San Jose). Both goaltenders also looked pretty bad on other occasions.

    Looking closely at the three losses, though, the offense may have outshot their opponents by double digits, but the average save percentage of the three goaltenders they faced (Elliott, Luongo and Ward) was an eye-socket gouging 0.965

    With only four goals spread across those three losses, you can't really pin everything on the goalie. It should be noted that the 'Hawks gave up the first goal in all of the losses sustained in both extended road trips, although only the Anaheim game was a blowout the first time around--the second time around, all of the losses were by at least two-goal margins.

    We can look to the power play numbers as well: While common "the PP is still clown shoes!!" knowledge states that it's not uncommon for the 'Hawks to be blanked with the man advantage, in the three losses to Ottawa, Vancouver, and Carolina, the PP was (respectively) 0-for-5, 0-for-4, and 0-for-3. You betcher ass a goal or two on the PP would have made a difference in those games. Overall, the 'Hawks ran at a 1-for-3 clip during the Circus Trip, and just over 1-for-4 on the January road trip. (PK numbers remained stable at around a 75% kill.)

  2. The most miserable conclusion we can draw from the numbers is probably the GF/GA differential between the two road trips: The GF numbers for the Circus Trip might have been unfairly endowed by the two blowouts at Calgary and San Jose, and 3 goals/game is still pretty respectable on the road, but the concern, as we suspected, lies at the wrong end of the ice. The 'Hawks gave up nearly two more goals per game in the second road trip, which honestly can't all be blamed on bad goaltending.

    Exactly how much worse was the defense? I'M SO GLAD YOU ASKED.

    .

    Corsi, +/-

    .

    Road Trip 1 DK BSeabs BC NH BSopel CB

    .

    CGY (A) -4, +1 -12, +1 -1, +2 -4, +1 -5, 0 -4, 0

    .

    EDM (A) 14, +1 8, +1 3, +1 0, 0 -5, 0 1, +2

    .

    VAN (A) -8, 0 -10, 0 -10, +1 -10, +1 -1, 0 3, 0

    .

    SJS (A) 14, +4 11, +2 5, 0 3, +1 2, +3 3, +2

    .

    ANA (A) 3, 0 7, 0 5, 0 4, 0 -2, 0 1, 0

    .

    LAK (A) 0, -1 1, -1 6, 0 0, 0 -5, 0 -1, 0

    .

    Totals 19, +5 5, +3 8, +4 -7, +3 -16, +3 3, +4

    .

    .

    Road Trip 2 DK BSeabs BC NH BSopel CB JH

    .

    CBJ (A) 7, 0 6, -1 1, -1 0, -2 -1, 0 6, +1

    .

    DET (A) 2, -1 3, -1 3, 0 -2, 0 -5, +1 -9, +1

    .

    OTT (A) 14, 0 14, 0 4, -2 2, -2 0, 0 -4, 0

    .

    CGY (A) 12, +1 6, +1 0, +1 -2, 0 -5, 0 -6, +1

    .

    VAN (A) 6, 0 -6, -1 5, -2 3, -1 7, -1 10, -3

    .

    EDM (A) 8, +3 6, +2 4, -1 0, -2 12, 0 8, 0

    .

    SJS (A) 3, 0 0, 0 -4, +3 -7, +2 -2, -1 -2, 0

    .

    CAR (A) 24, -2 22, -2 -2, -1 -4, -1 6, +1 -2, +1

    .

    Totals 76, +1 51, -2 11, -3 -10, -6 0, 0 5, +1 8, 0
  3. I used both CORSI and +/- to try and paint a better picture of performance vs. results, and the difference is a bit startling, especially in the case of Seabrook (who shat the bed quite a few times in January) and the Soupy-Meatball pairing.

    I feel like part of the reason why Marlboro 72's CORSI is so wack the second time around is because Q's been playing them practically half the game some nights (especially when trailing). I'm not going to go back and look up TOI for everyone, sorry. (NOTION DEBUNKED! See comments for TOI numbers, theories; contribute your own, etc.) Good grief, Duncan Keith's numbers are staggering when you consider that he's had to mitigate the poor play of his blue-line partner for three weeks. He's the only d-man besides Barker (who, if Keith gets the match-up equivalent of bedpan duty, then let's not kid ourselves, Barker is the guy who taps your arm and can't find the vein so he ends up jabbing you a zabillion times) in the plus column after eight games, as well.

    I don't remember who first proposed that other teams were starting to target our puckmoving d-men, and it would be interesting to find out how many hits each of them took this trip, but the drop-off for Campbell and Hjalmarsson seems to uphold that theory. Hjammer's CORSI may be low because he sees a lot of PK time, but does anyone else find it surprising that his +/- is the worst out of all the d-men over this stretch?

Okay, I just puked out all these numbers for you guys, now go play with them. I should have been in bed a long-ass time ago.

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TOI That refuses to be formatted right... But I don't want to fight with it anymore

Game DK Seabs BC NH CB Catfish JH

Jackets: 25:50 23:14 23:44 19:59 11:41 13:47 DNP

Scum: 27:14 24:27 26:01 20:15 11:59 16:52 DNP

Sens: 25:32 23:15 22:50 19:35 10:37 14:06 DNP

Flames: 27:24 25:50 27:05 19:09 10:04 8:46 DNP

Nucks: 30:41 23:08 20:51 14:44 14:40 11:42 DNP

Oilers 22:48 22:54 25:22 21:41 14:07 DNP 13:19

Sharks 26:19 25:45 22:55 21:02 10:57 14:15 DNP

Canes 29:40 26:40 21:39 18:24 10:11 12:16 DNP

by Delta0ne1 on Jan 31, 2010 9:08 AM CST reply actions  

TOI with slightly better formatting, now with tasty totals and averages

Apologies for all the periods, it’s the only way to get the formatting decent.

.
.

Road Trip 1 DKei …… BSea ….. BCam ….. NHja ….. BSop ….. CBar
 
 .
CGY (A) ….. 23:52 ….. 18:42 ….. 23:23 ….. 18:08 ….. 17:51 ….. 16:02

.
EDM (A) ….. 27:46 ….. 22:43 ….. 21:34 ….. 20:20 …..14:31 ….. 13:26

.
VAN (A) ….. 26:32 ….. 25:15 ….. 23:50 ….. 20:33 ….. 12:17 ….. 11:40

.
SJS (A) ….. 24:11 ….. 21:49 ….. 23:13 ….. 22:18 ….. 13:41 ….. 13:43

.
ANA (A) ….. 28:57 ….. 22:26 ….. 20:54 ….. 19:52 …..12:02 …..11:24

.
LAK (A) ….. 28:38 ….. 24:36 ….. 23:31 ….. 21:07 ….. 14:50 …..13:07

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Totals ….. 159:56 ….135:31 …. 136:25 …. 122:10 ….84:36 ….. 80:22

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Average….. 26:40 ….. 22:35 ….. 22:44 ….. 20:22 ….. 14:06 ….. 13:23

.

Road Trip 2 DKei …… BSea ….. BCam ….. NHja ….. BSop ….. CBar …… JHen

.
CBJ (A) ….. 25:50 ….. 23:14 ….. 23:44 ….. 19:59 ….. 13:47 ….. 11:41

.
DET (A) ….. 27:14 ….. 24:27 ….. 26:01 ….. 20:15 ….. 16:52 ….. 11:59

.
OTT (A) ….. 25:32 ….. 23:15 ….. 22:50 ….. 19:35 ….. 14:06 ….. 10:37

.
CGY (A) ….. 27:24 ….. 25:50 ….. 27:05 ….. 19:09 ….. 8:46 ….. 10:04

.
VAN (A) ….. 30:41 ….. 23:08 ….. 20:51 ….. 14:44 ….. 11:52 ….. 14:40

.
EDM (A) ….. 22:48 ….. 22:54 ….. 25:22 ….. 21:41 ….. —:— ….. 14:07 ….. 13:19

.
SJS (A) ….. 26:19 ….. 25:45 ….. 22:55 ….. 21:02 ….. 14:15 ….. 10:57

.
CAR (A) ….. 29:40 ….. 26:40 ….. 21:39 ….. 18:24 ….. 12:16 ….. 10:11

.
Totals ….. 215:28 …. 195:13 …. 190:27…. 154:49 …. 91:54 ….. 94:16 ….. 13:19

.
Average ….. 26:56 ….. 24:24 ….. 23:48 ….. 19:20 ….. 13:08 ….. 11:47 ….. 13:19

.
.
.

1. The thing that jumps out at me immediately is that Keith’s playing average didn’t significantly change between the two trips. Yes, I rechecked all those numbers, and the math is right. If you take out the 22 minute low outlier in Trip 2, his average jumps to about 27:30 per game, but that’s still only about a minute above his average time for Trip 1. So I’m not sure that increased playing time is the culprit for the insane CORSI numbers on the top two. He plays more total minutes, which may contribute to fatigue, and Keith may have to play harder to compensate for Seabrook’s tomfoolery, but his actual average TOI isn’t changing much.

2. The biggest difference is in Barker and Seabrook’s average TOI. Barker plays 2 minutes less on average on Trip 2 than on Trip 1. Picking up the slack is Seabs, who plays 2 minutes more. Campbell likewise seems to pick up the time that Sopel isn’t on the ice.

by spokeinthebandwagon on Jan 31, 2010 9:54 AM CST reply actions  

ah, thanks for that

Yeah, looking at the numbers again (after some rest), it seems like the third d-man pairing suffered the least dropoff out of the three, which can maybe be explained by less playing time, therefore putting more pressure on the first two pairings to carry the game—whether defensively or offensively?

Also, looking at DK’s numbers, he played nearly half the game in Vancouver and Carolina, both games where the ’Hawks were struggling to come from behind for most of the match, so that might explain some of the weirdness.

by gmh on Jan 31, 2010 12:23 PM CST up reply actions  

bouncing around thoughts here...

In the second trip, DK’s (though notably not Seabs’s) TOI numbers seem to be directly correlated with how much trouble the Hawks have with the lead. Not necessarily with scoring, as he’s seen high numbers in games where we score 3 goals, but in getting and keeping the lead. In the games where we’ve scored three, generally the opponents kept the game close and the Hawks seemed to be battling for it all night (hence why DK sees high TOI; when the Hawks are fighting to pull out a lead Q is less likely to throw Barker out there, and more likely to throw Keith out). The Vancouver game is the exception, and I don’t even know what was happening there. The Canucks seem to mess with all instruments of logic.

At any rate, where I was going with this is that TOI seems to indicate that Q has a definite tendency to lean harder on the top pairs when struggling, despite the fact that this may be counterproductive, especially on a long road trip. CORSI is still bothering me, though. Based on the S/SA stat averages, the Hawks actually took more shots on the opponents during the second trip, the one where CORSI was so alarmingly high. This has to mean that opponents were shooting more at us as well, though weren’t getting many high-quality chances since the SA average didn’t change much. So if I’m reading the CORSI scores right, opponents are getting a lot of garbage shots in the direction of our goal, which then get blocked, miss, etc. and don’t count in the SA average.

If that’s right, it actually makes a lot of sense. I strongly suspect that the M.O. for teams playing the Hawks right now is to traptraptrap through the center zone, and to try and dump oodles of crap chances at the goal early, no matter how ridiculous. The plan would be to wear out the Hawk D and generate stupid turnovers, etc in the third. Knowing that we play the top pair for nearly half the game, it’s not tough to imagine that they would be the point of attack for opposing offenses; if DK and Seabs start playing sloppy and they’re on the ice a lot, you’ve got a better chance at scoring.

The good news is that if true, one could mitigate this effect by just leaning more on the third pair to spread the load more evenly. The top pair gets less time and is less tired, the defense as a whole becomes less predictable (i.e. you can’t scout it any longer by just scouting Seabs and Keith), and the third pair picks up experience and confidence. The bad news is that if true, one would have to lean more on the third pair to spread responsibility some. Maybe if we swapped Barker for Hendry permanently, I’d feel better about that proposition? IDK.

by spokeinthebandwagon on Feb 1, 2010 3:08 AM CST up reply actions  

re: blocked shots
This has to mean that opponents were shooting more at us as well, though weren’t getting many high-quality chances since the SA average didn’t change much. So if I’m reading the CORSI scores right, opponents are getting a lot of garbage shots in the direction of our goal, which then get blocked, miss, etc. and don’t count in the SA average.

First road trip: 14.8 average
Second road trip: 14.0 average

I excluded the blocked shots data in my original table because there wasn’t a significant change and there didn’t seem to be much of a correlation between them and the overall quality of the defense/goaltending (i.e. 0.8 less blocked shots per game does not result in giving up nearly two more goals per game).

I’m still musing over the possibility that the ‘Hawks could be giving up more odd-man rushes, breakaways, etc. especially late in the shift or getting caught on a line change, but again, would probably require a more scientific look at every single goal given up to really be able to judge. I did calculate averages for giveaways and takeaways on the two road trips, but the discrepancies in stat-keeping make me wary of including them with any sort of seriousness. For the record, though: The average GV/TK ratio rose from 0.97 in the Circus Trip to 1.09 in the January freakshow, but the actual numbers veer wildly in the giveaway column, so who knows what that’s all about. Fucking stat keepers.

My grand hope for Brian Burke to generously take Barker off our hands kind of died with the Phaneuf trade, but I’ve still got faith in the idiocy of the other 28 GMs. Fingers crossed!

by gmh on Feb 1, 2010 3:57 AM CST up reply actions  

Love the numbers

Not sure what to make of them.

Hammer surprises me, although one theory could be that he has to “stay home” while Soupy is out pinching and/or playing his offensive game. Leaving Supernintendo then to be basically the only one significantly protecting the goalie or the first one back after an offensive rush. Just a thought, even though it seems like Hammer’s last 2 games weren’t his best by any stretch of the imagination.

2009 SCH Post Whore
2010 Troll Collector

by Trixietrx on Jan 31, 2010 10:39 AM CST reply actions  

this is a question for former hockey players

but do coaches usually dictate which d-man out of a pairing stays on the ice the longest? Like for shift changes and things like that, if one d-man might get caught out longer on average. I’ve noticed a few times (not necessarily just on this road trip) that goals get scored against us when we have an unconventional d-man pairing out on the ice, for instance Keith and Sopel, or Hjalmarsson and Seabs, which makes me think they were the result of incomplete shift changes/one d-man getting caught out longer than he should have.

Efffff, how to look at this without rewatch each and every goal …

by gmh on Jan 31, 2010 12:29 PM CST up reply actions  

It is usually more a matter of which side of the ice they play in relation to the benches

The guy furthest from the bench tends to get stuck on the ice longer more often. Smart D players will figure out a way to switch side (L or R) to get the more tired guy closer to the bench when the game flow permits it.

A coach dictating who comes in first – explicitly – is usually a low level sort of thing (kids’ leagues rather than NHL).

by krome on Feb 1, 2010 8:57 AM CST up reply actions  

thanks for that info

it’s something I should notice more every time I watch a game live.

by gmh on Feb 1, 2010 2:29 PM CST up reply actions  

The short time I played

there were two factors, side of the ice and offensive talent. Regardless of what side of the ice, whichever d-man could move the puck up ice better, would end up with more time. Sadly for me, this is why I never came close to lead the team in TOI.

Sucker! Competitive violence, that's why you're here!

by cdz3210 on Feb 1, 2010 3:40 PM CST up reply actions  

The offensive talent angle generally goes with overall talent & mobility at lower levels

As one moves up the scale, the mobility/mobility issue tends to mostly even out and the offensive talent factor is less linked to pure athleticism.

And a team with a monster defensive talent (the old Rod Langway kind of guy) might well want him on the distant side and hogging the big TOI numbers.

by krome on Feb 1, 2010 4:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Excellent Points

 I never moved up the scale (unless the one in my bathroom counts) and as for athleticism goes, let’s just say that I played with a lot of heart. haha

Sucker! Competitive violence, that's why you're here!

by cdz3210 on Feb 1, 2010 4:58 PM CST up reply actions  

I was a good ref and coach largely because my desire outstriped my talent

so I really had to learn the game better than most of the other guys.

by krome on Feb 1, 2010 5:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Thanks for the Numbers!

One thing to throw into the mix regarding our declining defensive performance is the fact that Marlboro 72 are out there against the other team’s best line most of the time, and (since these are road trips we’re looking at) we may not have our best defensive forwards on the ice at the same time. I’m way to stupid and lazy to figure out how Keith does when Madden’s line is out there as compared to Fraser’s. I don’t know if it’s a legitimate concept—I’m just searching here. But I do think we have some forwards who backcheck better than others on this team, and that’s got to affect the defense as a whole.

It does seem to me that most of our defensive letdowns are a “team” effort—blown coverages by several people, not just D-men.

by Preacher000 on Jan 31, 2010 11:22 PM CST reply actions  

now that TOI has shift charts back up

ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE! This may be an epic project for the offseason, to be honest.

by gmh on Feb 1, 2010 12:54 AM CST up reply actions  

And about targeting our D-men...

Don’t know if I was the first, but I did mention that the latest scouting report against us (after clogging up the neutral zone and then dropping everyone back to the front of the net) is to pressure the Hawks’ D behind the net. Without looking at the tapes, I seem to remember several of the teams on this trip sending two, and sometimes even three, forwards after the puck in our end. This resulted in way fewer easy breakouts for us and also a lot more turnovers. In general, the way to beat us is simply to apply pressure. Instead of letting Kane stand there at the half-wall with the puck, go get him. Vancouver did that a lot and we never seemed to get sustained pressure on them this last game. Expect a lot of it in the playoffs. (Of course, speed solves a lot of these tactics, and we have the fastest team in the West (League?) so….)

by Preacher000 on Jan 31, 2010 11:29 PM CST reply actions  

Against Carolina...

…the Hawks looked like they responded better to the aggressive forecheck…finally. It stands to reason that this strategy should create opporunities for the Hawks, and I thought I saw some of that Saturday.

Semi-related- Kane is showing glimpses of being a real pain in the ass forechecker himself, on top of everything else. Just imagine what this kid could achieve if he wasn’t such a lazy bastard.

by cliffkoroll on Feb 1, 2010 8:11 AM CST up reply actions  

GMH

I salute you.

Just because your friend says she saw me in the club with some other bitches,
sitting in V.I.P,
Smoking, and drinking, and kicking it.

by chrome on Feb 1, 2010 8:45 AM CST reply actions  

I certainly don't want to fan the flames of idiocy

but some of that does highlight the imbalance of their goalie standing on his head versus ours doing so.

by krome on Feb 1, 2010 10:20 AM CST reply actions  

Agreed

It seems like when the opposing goalie has a tremendous game and makes amazing save after save, our guys wind up having bad defensive games and our net minders do not have the top shelf game we need from them. That goes to the whole “momentum” thing which was recently analyzed to death. No statistics to back that, just my impression.

by Badgerdano on Feb 1, 2010 10:55 AM CST up reply actions  

that's the troubling thing

about our goalie situation. Niemi seems to be able to pull one out of his pocket here and there, but I still don’t trust that he can do it on a daily basis, if needed. Same with Huet, and there’s no denying he’s had a pretty bad January. On the flip side, we faced some top-tier goalies during this trip, and they did what they were supposed to do against the league’s top team.

by gmh on Feb 1, 2010 2:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Granted - Niemi seemed to steal the Vancouver game & maybe Huet with the Sharks

but I haven’t finished many games with that impression as to the Hawks goalies.

Leaving aside all the dithering over numbers … a really solid goalie will have solid looking numbers AND steal some games – make some big saves in important situations. I haven’t seen the level of game saving saves I would like to see this year.

by krome on Feb 1, 2010 11:12 AM CST reply actions  

Neimi in Pittsburgh?

Just because your friend says she saw me in the club with some other bitches,
sitting in V.I.P,
Smoking, and drinking, and kicking it.

by chrome on Feb 1, 2010 11:27 AM CST up reply actions  

My head is spinning.

"Another successful interaction with a man!" - Liz Lemon

by Sportsgal on Feb 1, 2010 11:20 AM CST reply actions  

I just suck at statistical analysis

Same thing happened in my bio stats class in college. Busted my ass for a B.

"Another successful interaction with a man!" - Liz Lemon

by Sportsgal on Feb 1, 2010 7:19 PM CST up reply actions  

I do too

I don’t know why people still humor me on this site

by gmh on Feb 1, 2010 9:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Because you post awesome shit

If I understood how they come up with some of these numbers better (namely CORSI; I don’t get it), I might be able to do some really interesting things with these numbers.

But, that would take time, and as has been pointed out, all my time is taken up by this website and dating lots of women.

All right, come on, dummy, you won the game. Come on. Pick up your trophy.

by meeshak on Feb 1, 2010 9:30 PM CST up reply actions  

I devote an hour a week to trying to learn/understand CORSI. If anyone can explain it in layman’s term I’d be very grateful.

And this is too easy to pass up:

and dating lots of women.

We’re happy for ya!!

SCH Resident Idiot
The only Cup we can win is this years

by Johnny Lava on Feb 1, 2010 10:17 PM CST up reply actions  

that’s a joke, by the way. i spend all my time on SCH.

All right, come on, dummy, you won the game. Come on. Pick up your trophy.

by meeshak on Feb 1, 2010 11:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Corsi is easy..

it’s quite similar to +/-… Rather than goals though, corsi is the number of shots directed at the opponents net (including missed, blocked, posts, etc)… minus the number of shots directed at your net…

by Matthew Dirt on Feb 2, 2010 12:36 AM CST up reply actions  

so a crap sling towards the net, like an almost dump, counts? Like +/- I’m not too sure how to take it then. This is where I’m having an issue, I’m not “getting it” It seems like something is missing from the equation. That’s the best way I can put it.

SCH Resident Idiot
The only Cup we can win is this years

by Johnny Lava on Feb 2, 2010 6:27 AM CST up reply actions  

Honestly..

I’m not too sure either. I think this comes into the “nothing is perfect” category. There’s a certain amount of subjectivity to it. I think it’s a better stat than standard +/- though…

by Matthew Dirt on Feb 3, 2010 12:16 AM CST up reply actions  

I take back...

any shit I’ve ever said to you. This fanpost is so nice to have after the last couple. Only problem is I’ve been violently puking numbers the last few days, anyone know how to stop it?

by cubs22 on Feb 1, 2010 11:27 AM CST reply actions  

Funions and chocolate milk.

Just because your friend says she saw me in the club with some other bitches,
sitting in V.I.P,
Smoking, and drinking, and kicking it.

by chrome on Feb 1, 2010 11:28 AM CST up reply actions  

The difference is goaltending, not defense

We allowed fewer shots per game on the most recent tri than on the circus trip but almost two goals a game more..

Plus, it’s my general impression that the circus trip coincided with the best stretch of goaltending we’ve had all year, which is borne out by the numbers.

Hawks get some of that in April- good night Irene.

by cliffkoroll on Feb 1, 2010 12:51 PM CST reply actions  

I wish I knew

how to get a shot quality model for Huet and Niemi. I see them on BtN but it doesn’t seem like one of those things you can just plug in with a goaltender’s name and get a graph spit out. It would definitely help, although I suspect our goalies tend to see less dangerous shots on average.

by gmh on Feb 1, 2010 2:26 PM CST up reply actions  

I’d actually beg to differ. Given Huet’s reliance on the butterfly, when he does give up a shot against that gets through, particularly a rebound, most of those seem like high-quality chances.

www.secondcityhockey.com

It's a bird, it's a plane, it's a goddamn shame.

by McClure on Feb 1, 2010 3:56 PM CST up reply actions  

From all the studies I have seen, the effect of shot quality

turns out to be more or less negligible over a large sample of goaltending. At the extremes it appears to be worth something like +/-2 shots per game if I recall correctly. While this is worth something, it is not really enough to spend a lot of time calculating according to all the studies I have seen (I believe they were on Brodeur Is a Fraud, MC79, and some of the other so-called Oilogosphere sites.)

Also I agree with McClure that our goalies probably see more high-quality chances than average; some of this is inevitable when you give up so few shots overall, the occasional breakaway or coverage breakdown is going to effect your average shot quality more than it would on a team that gives up a greater # of shots than the Hawks. Many of the shots which end up Blocked by the Hawks strong defense are not terribly high-quality, and would probably bring the average shot quality down if they were to get through to the goalie. Not to say that blocking shots is anything less than extremely valuable- it is very valuable, and preventing shots is (over the long run) essentially the same as preventing goals.

by Canseco's Roid Party on Feb 2, 2010 12:51 PM CST up reply actions  

that's good to know

maybe now I can stop obsessing.

by gmh on Feb 2, 2010 3:58 PM CST up reply actions  

I went to a hockey blog,

And statistical analysis broke out!

by Hi, I'm Bob LeDonne on Feb 1, 2010 2:05 PM CST via mobile reply actions  

but most of us are still illiterate

i use voice recognition software to type

All right, come on, dummy, you won the game. Come on. Pick up your trophy.

by meeshak on Feb 1, 2010 9:32 PM CST up reply actions  

I tried early voice recognition stuff

I read more to the PC than to my kids, and my stuff still made me seem like elmer Fudd

by krome on Feb 2, 2010 7:37 AM CST via mobile up reply actions  

great post

Can’t think of much more to add, although:

(PK numbers remained stable at around a 75% kill.)

I’m not sure what that meant, since I wouldn’t consider 75% a decent number. If the numbers I’m looking at are correct, we killed 17 of 23 penalties during the road trip, and 17 of 21 during this later one. But I guess that’s not much of a difference either, though both seem like bad PK records.

But how do you really quantify—and I guess this is the million-dollar question—whether the losses are due to the defense or the goaltending. Can you use CORSI as a fair metric to use when comparing goalies to defensemen?

FWIW, CORSI numbers for the goalies are below.

Circus Trip:
- Huet = 23 (5 games)
- Niemi = -18 (1 game)

Disney on Ice Trip:
- Huet = 77 (5 GS, 6 GP)
- Niemi = -6 (3 GS)

Tweets @ChiBlackhawks and blogs at Blackhawks Down Low.

by chiblackhawks on Feb 1, 2010 4:20 PM CST reply actions  

Yeah, I was referring to the PK% staying the same over the two road trips, not the actual kill rate. We seem to kill penalties better at home anyway, and we don’t really log a lot of PIM to begin with.

by gmh on Feb 1, 2010 4:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Can you use CORSI as a fair metric to use when comparing goalies to defensemen?

I guess it depends on how much value you place on CORSI ratings. It’s nearly impossible to isolate a defensemen in the absence of his supporting cast. If a poor goalie or Dion Phadouche is paired with you, your +/- is going to significantly suffer and so are these types of advanced ratings. CORSI is a little more reliable than the BTN ratings, but even still, it doesn’t take into account turnovers, breakaways, and other things that a defenseman is responsible for, and most importantly, CORSI doesn’t take into account quality of shots or competition. On the flipside, neither are goalie screens, deflections, etc that aren’t necessarily any fault of an individual defenseman. They’re fine to use as a guideline, but not the be-all-end-all. They can help support an argument, but they’re not going to define one. If you follow baseball, they’re the hockey equivalent of the defensive range metric UZR/150. Haven’t checked lately,. but I think Bickell had the highest BTN rating among Hawks this year…granted in limited time but still. Matt Walker’s (-0.08) BTN rating was higher than Campbell’s(-0.44) last season.

Defense simply has the least amount of quantifiable data regarding a players effectiveness. Very few advanced stats that are often charted privately by team officials are made available to the public…and you know, it’s hockey, so even if you find say a given player’s turnovers, it’s subjective to whomever is charting them. These are your CORSI leaders from last year…two of them seem to fail the eye test.

   1. David Moss CGY +23.8
   2. Pavel Datsyuk DET +23
   3. Henrik Zetterberg DET +20.1
   4. Alexander Ovechkin WSH +19
   5. Mikael Samuelsson DET +18.9

Goalies can be easier to isolate but still advanced metrics like this are team dependent. For example, Phoenix has somehow improved from 23rd to 7th in shots against this season, and some of that is attributed to adding more defensive minded forwards like Pyatt and Fiddler and losing Gretzky’s system, but it also doesn’t hurt to have Ilya Bryzgalov and his +14.7 GVT rating, a few ticks behind Kiprusoff for 3rd in the west despite having Aucoin and Vandermeer and some of their other pylons in front of him.

by Crease Monkey on Feb 1, 2010 6:35 PM CST up reply actions  

You think Samuelsson fails the eye test??

I think he is a pretty good player who plays mostly with even better ones, and therefore would be expected to outperform his opponents. What I think you meant is that he wasn’t good at D…which remember, is not necessarily what CORSI is saying.

If you instead meant that Ovechkin was a surprise (doubtful), the same point stands- just because someone has a high Corsi doesn’t mean they are good at D…it might mean they are GREAT at shooting lots and it doesn’t matter if they are poor/decent on D, since they are firing so many shots during their time on the ice that no opponent is able to outshoot them.

by Canseco's Roid Party on Feb 2, 2010 12:57 PM CST up reply actions  

certainly

the goal tending has been subpar, but it does seem that other teams have started to pressure the D a whole lot more when we’re in transition. Other teams are doing a better job of anticipating our D-men’s passes.

It’s frustrating as hell and I can’t explain it past the fact that they put in a ton of energy game in and game out protecting Niemi and Huet while being pretty amazing on offense.

by aeroplane1 on Feb 1, 2010 6:57 PM CST reply actions  

Jesus

all the data is overwhelming.

Remember when we’d just watch the game and enjoy it? Newspaper stats and eyetests?

I blame the fucks that came up with sabermetrics in baseball. I understand how it’s very usefull for GMs and their office, but for the casual fan it can be a bit much.

SCH Resident Idiot
The only Cup we can win is this years

by Johnny Lava on Feb 1, 2010 10:25 PM CST reply actions  

I love data

I just think that some of the numbers are outliers. The eye test tells me things sometimes that the numbers don’t, but gobs of numbers, yum yum.

2009 SCH Post Whore
2010 Troll Collector

by Trixietrx on Feb 1, 2010 10:36 PM CST up reply actions  

totally of subject

kinda. You see the time for the Ferrari Fxx on Top Gear? 7 sec (almost 10%) quicker than the Gumphert. Now that is a stat I can understand.

SCH Resident Idiot
The only Cup we can win is this years

by Johnny Lava on Feb 2, 2010 6:31 AM CST up reply actions  

Nah

It’s gonna be a hectic week, and I’ve seen some of these new episodes already (friends in the UK). At least with On Demand I can catch up on them later, though.

2009 SCH Post Whore
2010 Troll Collector

by Trixietrx on Feb 2, 2010 8:29 AM CST up reply actions  

Also

Hammond “beat” the Stig “clearly”. You’ve probably seen the race I’m talking about (I just saw it last night), but that “stat” I understand! No numbers required.

by VerStig on Feb 2, 2010 9:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Was that the Bugatti?

I actually haven’t seen the whole thing. Have they done any new races with the Koenesig (sp?).

2009 SCH Post Whore
2010 Troll Collector

by Trixietrx on Feb 3, 2010 9:05 AM CST up reply actions  

Not sure what this means...

…but the Hawks have scored on 9.5% (opposition SV% 0.905) of their shots this year, while the opposition has scored on 9.3% of shots (SV% 0.907).

The Hawks # might be skewed a bit due to a handful of blow-outs (the opposition hasn’t done this to the Hawks.) Also, empty-netters should be removed, but there have only been a couple fo these..

Aside from this, though, it tells me that either:

(a ) the Hawks get slightly better scoring chances than the opposition,

(b ) the Hawks are more skilled offensively than the opposition, so they convert on a slightly higher percentage of chances, or

 (c ) the Hawks goalies have played slightly better than the opposition.

My gut says (b) is the answer, but, if these numbers hold up, it doesn’t really matter so long as the Hawks continue to outshoot the opposition by a ridiculous margin.

by cliffkoroll on Feb 1, 2010 11:01 PM CST reply actions  

Mostly B, I'd think.

Also you should probably separate out the shooting% by EV and PP goals, since if you have more PPs than the opposition (pretty sure the Hawks have had more PP chances than their opponents) you would be expected to convert at a higher rate due to the average PP-shooting% being higher than the average at even strength.

by Canseco's Roid Party on Feb 2, 2010 12:59 PM CST up reply actions  

whoa!

© is impossible. The fabric of timespace would have to rip for that to happen. Can’t have it. Our Goalie Sucks is one of those universal truths like everything tastes like chicken.

To me the stat I would like to see is “Puck Possesion.” Not “Time in Zone,”

SCH Resident Idiot
The only Cup we can win is this years

by Johnny Lava on Feb 2, 2010 6:40 AM CST reply actions  

massive reply fail

the copywrite symbol is kina cool mistake tho

SCH Resident Idiot
The only Cup we can win is this years

by Johnny Lava on Feb 2, 2010 6:42 AM CST up reply actions  

This isn’t nearly as informative as espn’s power rankings

They brought their fuckin' TOYS with 'em!

by ZootSuitZombie on Feb 2, 2010 11:55 AM CST reply actions  

foxsports

has a better system for power rankings. They have a formula based on points earned out of total possible points….

SCH Resident Idiot
The only Cup we can win is this years

by Johnny Lava on Feb 2, 2010 12:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Trade Buzz

Lets pray this one is just a trial ballon.

Blogs are buzzing about McKee heading to the Hawks.

"Whats your location Chief?"
"Well, Im on a road. Appears to be asphalt. I am directly under the Earth's sun......now."

by HjammerTime on Feb 2, 2010 1:22 PM CST reply actions  

I'm not reading anything into (yet) From same Daily Herald article

“Just heard Bolland was skating between Sharp and Hossa in practice today and Ladd left practice early. Could be a ding as easily as a trade, but you never know with all the rumors flying around lately.”

Competitive violence, that's why you're here!

by cdz3210 on Feb 2, 2010 1:28 PM CST up reply actions  

I saw that too. I think trading Ladd is a bit of a stretch…..I also think it would be a major mistake. Sure the Hawks aren’t one of those teams who tries to run you out of the building but Ladd brings a lot of intensity.

"Whats your location Chief?"
"Well, Im on a road. Appears to be asphalt. I am directly under the Earth's sun......now."

by HjammerTime on Feb 2, 2010 1:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Let's clarify a few things:

This isn’t directed at you necessarily, but to whoever else who may take what you say with more than a grain of salt.

1. Besides Sassone’s post, I’ve not seen any other source for this McKee to the Hawks rumor. And he merely states there’s a rumor, then added that McKee was scratched. As far as I’m concerned, scratching a player doesn’t mean he’s headed to the trading block. It sounds more to me like he’s just musing out loud— he said there were rumors, but lo and behold not once did he say he had the information firsthand. So where are these rumors supposed to come from?

2. Ladd left practice early due to a “lower body injury” according to Q, though both he and Bolland will be playing on Wednesday. That’s from this tweet.

3. I’ve seen people go wild over “what if” tweets and blog posts— hell, on my own Twitter stream I laughed about Ladd probably going to Atlanta for Kovalchuk, a clear mockery of the rumor-mongering going about, and it got RTed 5min later as a rumor. SIGH.

In conclusion: Dear readers, if you cannot tell the difference between a serious statement and a sarcastic one, it might be a good idea to get the hell out of the interwebs.

Tweets @ChiBlackhawks and blogs at Blackhawks Down Low.

by chiblackhawks on Feb 2, 2010 1:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Well seeing as this same blog just commented on the same rumor I feel vindicated. Just as Puck Daddy and the Pens Blog on SB Nation

Also we weren’t jizzing our pants over this. Can we not even merely mention this? I also pointed that trading Ladd was a stretch.

In conclusion: Refuckinglax.

"Whats your location Chief?"
"Well, Im on a road. Appears to be asphalt. I am directly under the Earth's sun......now."

by HjammerTime on Feb 2, 2010 1:57 PM CST up reply actions  

Dude.
This isn’t directed at you necessarily, but to whoever else who may take what you say with more than a grain of salt.

Read. Then relax.

Tweets @ChiBlackhawks and blogs at Blackhawks Down Low.

by chiblackhawks on Feb 2, 2010 2:00 PM CST up reply actions  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI0AqBlQ_eE

All right, come on, dummy, you won the game. Come on. Pick up your trophy.

by meeshak on Feb 2, 2010 8:08 PM CST up reply actions  

I love how what i read here

ends up in a paper a few days later

SCH Resident Idiot
The only Cup we can win is this years

by Johnny Lava on Feb 2, 2010 1:32 PM CST reply actions  

Rec'd

Competitive violence, that's why you're here!

by cdz3210 on Feb 2, 2010 2:39 PM CST up reply actions  

LOL, no one's ever happy

Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

Tweets @ChiBlackhawks and blogs at Blackhawks Down Low.

by chiblackhawks on Feb 2, 2010 2:57 PM CST up reply actions  

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