What's in Your Wallet? Third Line Checking with Rewards from LaddSteegBoll One Bank
| Some say... I never dump the puck, and that our line does a miserable job of shutting down Jumbo Joe. |
Some say this, indeed. That would be Derek Zona over at The Copper & Blue, who's been doing some wonderful work breaking down the scoring chances in every playoff game. But, after this line's mind-infesting work against the Sedins in Round 2, implying that Dave Bolland (and by extension, Kris Versteeg and Andrew Ladd -- the lightning in a bottle captured by Coach Q's line generator) was more lucky than good against Joe Thornton & co. was, well, a little agitating to us Blackhawks fans.
Derek put up a head-to-head breakdown of these scoring chances in a more recent post. Interestingly, his results showed much of the same; that our belovedly pesky third line wasn't doing much to "shut down" that top line of the Sharks -- the one they call HTML. If anything, according to Mr. Zona, all it did was open up opportunities for Sharpie's line (not so much Tazer's) in limited head-to-head TOI.
![]() Head-to-Head Scoring Chances for Games 1 and 2 (click for chances per 15 mins) Reproduced, admittedly without permission (I hope this is okay) |
I trust Derek's judgment on the scoring chances. This is a relatively objective form of eye test. But not only does this lead us to question our own eyes, but also what the best way to measure the effectiveness of a checking line is.
| If you really want to "question" your eyes, call me a coward. Go ahead, try it. |
Though I never did a post on Head-to-Head +/- (my new name for Cross-Mutual +/-; I'll explain in my next report) for the Vancouver series, those numbers don't jump out at anybody either. Bolland was +2 facing Henrik but even against Daniel (who he got to totally lose it). The line was negative against Burrows, who got bumped up to the top line for most of the second half of the series (there's no chart here, so don't look for it).
People generally acknowledge the effectiveness of our very own Davey B-Rat against the Sedins, though, so let's look at some numbers from the Sharks series to see if actually they kept things going, or if our third line success was a figment of our homerism-twinged minds (and media).
| With triple the rewards, me and Ladd are having trouble deciding which category to choose. |
There are a lot of stats that we can use to try to understand how Weapon's line handled the triple threat of Marleau-Heatley-Thornton. I'll select a few to shed some light on how they match up to what we see on the ice. Since these were the primary matchups, I'll limit the data to the Hawks' 1st and 3rd lines against the Sharks' top six.
Head-to-Head +/- and Corsi
Let's start with Head-to-Head +/-, since I've used it before and it gives you what really counts at even strength -- who scored, against who (remember, everything in this post is from a 'Hawks point of view, so pluses for us are minuses for Sharks).

Bolland and Versteeg's +4s on Heatley and Thornton were the highest among forwards. Since Patrick Marleau was doing all the scoring -- and I mean ALL the scoring -- against us, it's amazing that he couldn't crack positive territory against a line that didn't have Toews or Hossa on it.
| Oh, I'm sorry, did THIS just happen? |
But, just looking at the results doesn't tell the whole story, because goals often result from broken plays and lucky breakaways, rather than whatever style of play a line is predominantly imposing on another. So, with the aid of my brand new program for parsing NHL play-by-play data, I found a way to do the same thing but with Corsi instead of +/-.

That's a pretty muddy picture, huh? Against Joe Pavelski's line, it's obvious which matchup works there, so it would make sense that Coach Q wanted to keep Buff+DDN out there against them. Of course, this begs the question of whether it was worth doing this, if VerBolLadd aren't exactly shutting down HTML -- but that's a question I'll answer in the last section.
| Does your |
In the meantime, we can clear this up by splitting the first two games from the last two.

Telling, isn't it? Looks like at least from a shots-directed perspective (as per the definition of Corsi), something was working, and Todd McLellan didn't adjust until the series came back to Chicago. Bolland's line stuck with Jumbo Joe, who got time with Devin Setoguchi and Randy Logan Couture. H and ML got to spend time with Manny Malhotra. What this did was:
- Isolate Thornton when he was bad; he was actually very good at times, but freeing up Marleau paid dividends.
- Get more ice time for guys beyond top 6; Malhotra is a FO machine and I can't fathom why McLellan didn't play Couture more in Games 1 and 2, given how well he'd played in the first two rounds.
- Allow Versteeg to outplay
himselfPavelski, somehow. - Reduce our checking line's advantage to drawing dumb penalties. And scoring opportunistically.
| At our bank, you can forget about scoring chances... and still score. |
But, even if these changes helped the Sharks, it didn't help them win Games 3 and 4. Are they (or we) doing something wrong, here?
Bonus Feature: Shot ChartSince I was able to cook up corrected shot charts for these games (since the NHL ones are flipped), and despite the imprecision of their stat-keepers, I thought I'd chart the shots from our featured matchup.
Observations:
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Weighted Shots-Directed Rating
After noting the limitations of Corsi in describing checking lines (this is fairly well known, and I've cited Behind the Net and its adjustments to Corsi before), I went back to my first super-long stats post and discovered a shocking fact that I neglected to highlight back then: Shots Directed on Net Differential (basically a team Corsi) and Goal Differential are 23% negatively correlated.
That's right -- at least for our Men of Four Feathers, a positive Corsi rating means we score less. Okay, so why are we tracking this statistic again? Maybe we should shoot less?
| Hah, Steeger doesn't know how to dump the puck, I'll show him. Oh wait, this is a shootout? fffffffff! |
Before all you young stats geeks out there start panicking, don't forget that Corsi is an illustrative statistic -- it does reflect the direction that pucks are being shot, even if it doesn't account for the quality of said shots. But, if it won't tell us how our team is doing, what will?
To answer this question, you might think about trying to regress multiple variables against goal differential, something I might have alluded to in that post I mentioned, since those were all single-variable regressions. But since that's tough to use for illustrative purposes here, instead I tried to devise my own rating system.
Basically, I took the components of Corsi: shots on goal (SOG), attempts blocked (AB), and missed shots (MS). Each of these gets multiplied by some weight to come up with this rating, which I then regress against goal differential; how well my rating can predict goal differential comes out of the R-squared value. Using Excel's optimizer, I came up with this formula as for the rating that best predicts goal differential in the regular season:
VerRATING = 0.66 x SOG − 2.08 x AB − 1.58 x MS
| Half a million for the stones, Taking trips from here to Rome, So if you ain't got no money take your broke ass home... |
This is nothing like Corsi; in fact, it's bad if you don't hit the net. Oh, that actually makes sense! After all, I've already extolled the virtues of On-Net%. It's more important to hit the net a lot than to just shoot more. But, given how crazy things get in the playoffs, is this rating still relevant?
Here is the regression that came out of what I did above:

The pink squares in this graph represent playoff games. So far, they seem to fit the pattern, so it ought to be safe to apply this to playoff games, like those against the Sharks.

This is still highly experimental, and I probably should have done this in a separate post. Even though I used all game situations to derive the formula, wacky playoff numbers made me limit them to even-strength here. Obviously there's a lot more work to be done with this rating of mine (and it needs a better name!).
Still, there's some interesting stuff to be taken away here. Our top line does horribly in this statistic, because they generate so much offense that may be of the not-so-accurate variety. Accordingly, the Bolland line does the same against HTML, for largely the same reasons. However, overall, we do come out on top (Niemi has a +17 on Nabby), and we won the series.
What's happening here is that blocked and missed shots are being heavily penalized -- but remember that this is calibrated to determine success over the course of a game. Toews's block on the PK leading to the Rat's shortie is a good example of how a block can be so bad (and that's also why many stats gurus prefer Fenwick over Corsi), even though it didn't happen at even strength.
| Boys gotta go... (that kid has an awesome playoff beard) |
Well that was long. But while it says that given the results, you can't say that Bolland's rattiness didn't have an effect on the Sharks' top line, it also doesn't prove it. There's one thing left to test, however -- even if they only barely held HTML in check (or were beat at times), did they create enough additional opportunities for Daydream McNuggets?
Theoretical Line Matching: Corsi and WSD Rates
One way to check whether freeing our top line from HTML (who Toews et al. seemed to match up well against) was worth it is to pretend that they get an extra minute of ice time against HTML and that Bolland's line gets a minute less.
This is a pretty statistically naive methodology here, but it's basically saying that by shifting a minute of ice time from one matchup to the other, the lines' Corsi (or Weighted Shots-Directed Rating) would change proportionally with the rates the lines are producing these numbers.
I weighted each line's Corsi by each player's TOI relative to his line and the line's TOI relative to total even-strength TOI of the team. Then, every time I added or subtracted a minute (+1 or -1 dTOI), I ended up with an equation:
totCORSI = 3.91 − 0.13 x dTOI
And doing the same for WSD rating:
totWSD = 1.36 − 0.02 x dTOI
Since both measures go down when we take away a minute from Bolland's line and give it to Toews's -- we can say that putting Bolland's line up against HTML resulted in more production overall. So, it was worth it... even if barely.
Recap
So, what can we say? None of these statistics look at the plays like you could with your eyes, but even if the Bolland-Thornton matchup was overstated by the media, the numbers do show that we held the better end of that matchup, in the end.
| When the ref drops the puck, you're supposed to go for the puck and he went for the wrist. I think he got mixed up. Ah, memories... |
What you could gather from the above is that, while HTML outchanced our 3rd line, their pattern of play was far from dominant; by the time they got their act together in the latter half of the series, our guys happened to find ways to score, too (rewards! I love rewards).
Basically, LaddSteegBoll did a couple of things right -- 1) they created a better matchup for the Captain's line, on a comparative basis, and 2) they held their own just enough to be worth it. But, don't take my word for it; the statistics don't give us any clear indications here, and the fact that this line ended up inexplicably scoring as much as they did might be what made them look so good.
Besides, these are the only stats that actually matter:
2-1, 4-2, 3-2, 4-2
And most importantly, 4-0!
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Update: Here are some interesting articles posted recently on BtN and C&B on related topics, written by people with way more experience in this kind of thing. If your head hasn't asploded from looking at stats yet, these present some interesting shot-related things to think about.
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(sorry about the length; this post started as an attempt to shine some statistical light on this matchup and I got carried away -- for those of you complaining about the wait, though, at least this gave you something to do before the SCF)
This head-asplosion-inducing stats-post has been brought to you by:

| Vhat's in your vallet? |
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Comments
need some time to digest this behemoth a bit....
But i wonder if the inexplicable scoring by the Bolly’s line might have something to do with them aiming more directly at the net? You said that VerRATING variable (I’m very intrigued by this new variable, btw) takes a beating when the shot doesn’t hit the net, so is it impacted by things like the top line trying to just get it vaguely towards the net so Buff can guide it in? This is where i got a bit confused….
Also, i’m still a big fan of the shots chart (though i did do a double take on Ladd’s “shot from center ice”…that HAS to be off). But I’m now even more concerned than last time that when we let the opponents get their chances, it’s practically on top of the crease. Maybe because we’re better about making sure they don’t get shots off from further out so they have to bring the puck in closer….Or maybe it means that they’re just able to get in closer, but out defense around the has been top notch immediately around the crease (which they have been). Despite our great d-around the goal, I feel much less comfortable going into Sat if it’s the latter.
Great work again (of course)! These stats are great. You spoil us rotten, like a good husband who brings home too many flowers and fine chocolates.
Thanks for the response!
I was really worried that everybody would just be overwhelmed by this flood of data/info, so I’m glad you were able to come up with something already.
The VerRATING (better name than WSD, eh?) is really weird, because it’s what correlates best with ‘Hawks goal differential in the regular season, and in some ways debunks Corsi. But it’s really hard to believe some of those results — like, as you say, the top line. The best explanation I can think of is, when you let the negative parts of VerRATING dominate, you’re pressing a little too hard to score (and Q does put out the top line more and the third line less when we’re playing catch-up), and if can’t keep disciplined enough with your play, it can hurt you.
I think there’s a picture of Ladd’s shot in Zona’s post, so you’re right — it isn’t quite from center ice (51 feet? um..). I think that the Sharks (like the Canucks) made a concerted effort to get in close after being stonewalled by Niemi, but you’re absolutely right that our D has been spectacular in that area. I have to wonder if the backchecking by our forwards also has something to do with this, though.
ah ok, that helps understand VerRATING a bit better. And while our D has been phenomenal around the crease, I just feel bad expecting them to keep making those mind-numbing clears, as opposed to limiting the puck’s presence there in the first place. But I guess if the puck does get there, better to have a spectacular clear than it end up in the back of the net.
Not saying I wasn’t overwhelmed by the post. It IS overwhelming. I’m just trying to break it up into digestable-bites. Might have more questions later once I go over it again.
by puppetmasterp on May 28, 2010 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed
I can’t complain about their solid work in the danger area, but given our issues with the clears themselves, I’m not going to complain (what with Edzo loving that D to D pass in front of the net and all). Oh, and btw, the chart is for our 3rd line vs. HTML only — I seem to remember Pavelski’s line getting way more chances around the net than they did. So it might be worse than it looks.
Again sorry about the length; I normally try to pare this stuff down but I wanted to get it out before everybody forgot we played the Sharks. Plus I’m already having trouble figuring out how I’m going to post my plus-minus / Corsi report, because I don’t want to kick BCS’s video off the sidebar…
Nope, length is not a problem. We're manly women, we can handle your length!
Oh god, the terrible pun in that just occurred to me. Sorry everyone.
But I’d rather a post like this go long and explain its reasoning than go short and leave us all going, “Huh?”. So feel free to continue to post long statsposts, dude. Hawks fans are strong, we can take it.
by spokeinthebandwagon on May 28, 2010 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions
don’t apologize! It wasn’t a criticism ;)
by puppetmasterp on May 28, 2010 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh, I'm completely overwhelmed
by the flood of data. So much so that my eyes have glazed over and I have a sudden urge to drink very much very fast.
But that doesn’t mean I can’t also appreciate and be awed by the effort and dedication that went into this. I wish numbers didn’t give me hives; I’d probably appreciate it even more!
teaching respect for the Indian, one Red Wing fan at a time.
I love it
I especially love the taglines with LaddSteegBoll icons.
I do not have the intelligence to add anything to this, so I’m just going to rec this and let others fill the comment section.
We aren't playing them again are we? So why is this posted?
J/k. Great stuff! I need to re-read when I’m less tired though, my head is about to asplode.
The sun never sets on a badass
Because I like hearing the "pop" of asploding heads?
Actually, I had accumulated some of this stuff, and I felt silly after all the Flyers analysis started pouring out. So I just rushed this to publication.
That and, people have been complaining about the layoff before Game 1. It’s a stretch, but maybe — maaaybe you could apply some of the insight here to matchups against Philly?
You and your toys
Nice job Verstig! This will definitely take a little while to digest.
I went to a fight the other night and a hockey game broke out.
- Rodney Dangerfield
TMI for me
I’m looking for more arguments today.
Chewing gum?
"Alex didn't cause Campbell's injury, the boards did."
WHAT, you mean you're trying to limit our discussion AGAIN???
by puppetmasterp on May 28, 2010 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions
VerStig is to awesomely ridiculous statistical fanposts........
as DGB / Bloge Salming is to hilarious satirical hockey videos.
As many have stated, I need to go through your fanpost again to try and make some more sense of it, specifically the VerRATING and regression equation.
I know that the most important part of your fanpost is the analysis, but the aesthetic aspect is top notch. The graphics, figures, and charts are all sorts of awesome and they really make analytical fanposts much more enjoyable to read. The organization of your posts make them as digestible as possible, and the bits of humor are solid.
Good work and thanks,
Ditto for CNS
agreed but
I know that the most important part of your fanpost is the analysis, but the aesthetic aspect is top notch.
Not merely aesthetics- presentation is as crucial to statistical analysis as the number-crunching itself, imo.
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
by cliffkoroll on May 28, 2010 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions
no doubt
Especially for someone like me. I’m not really a “stats guy”, but I would’ve read this post anyway, even if it was simply a display of the raw data, just to see what it was about. In essence, I would have glazed over it and maybe/maybe not learned something.
But the way VerStig presents this stuff (and gmh too), its so well done that it draws me in, educates me, makes me laugh, and encourages me to really think about this stuff and understand it.
VerStig are you listening? You make me want to be a better stats man.
I believe what you meant there was
awesomelyridiculousawesome and riduculously ridiculous
teaching respect for the Indian, one Red Wing fan at a time.
I'm intrigued by the concept behind VerRATING, but I'm not sold on the results.
Comparing the VR (I’m abbreviating) to the traditional +/- or Corsi charts, highly negative VR seems to be correlated with positive traditional measurements. The Toews line lit up Setoguchi in Corsi, but got lit up by Seto on VR. Similarly, the Bolland line does well against the Pavelski line in VR, but got pummeled by them according to Corsi.
So I guess my problem is that I’m not sure what VR reflects. I know you were trying to get a checking line-friendly metric that somehow reflects shot accuracy on net, but it seems to me like shot accuracy on net should be a positive thing; more shots that don’t get blocked and that don’t miss should produce results that translate into better scoring chances or higher +/-. In this case, good VR numbers for the Bolland line translated to bad-looking scoring chance numbers, so I’m not really sure how that works. Same thing for the Toews line: terrible VR translated to good scoring chances, Corsi, etc. Just on the eye test, I have a hard time believing that Ladd is a significantly more accurate shot than Kane, even if Kane does shoot a lot more.
by spokeinthebandwagon on May 28, 2010 9:11 AM CDT reply actions
I'm not sold yet, either
But part of its value is that it runs counter to Corsi. I wouldn’t look into the actual coefficients too much (I think SOG happen more often than A/B and MS individually) so it’s more like a Shot = yay, Getting Blocked = nay, Missing = nay.
Basically this stat is very specifically a result of (more than a cause of) what happens when the ‘Hawks play well. Since we won a lot even with a predominantly negative differential (i.e. positive for opponents), I have to think this is team-specific and a product of us outshooting everybody. But it’s not accuracy, so much as not getting flustered by opposing defenses, that’s important to this statistic.
I’ll have to look at this more in the offseason… maybe it’d be helpful for each team to have its own weight or something. For instance, it might turn out that the Sharks don’t do well by putting up a lot of inaccurate shots, either (also, about Setoguchi — if I remember correctly, I think he had a ton of shots in the series, just none of them went in; maybe he could’ve been more dangerous than he was?).
Something you wrote that caught my eye...
Basically this stat is very specifically a result of (more than a cause of) what happens when the ‘Hawks play well.
Given that statement, I’m curious as to what you think its predictive value might be. Rereading that last sentence, it sounds facetious, but I really do mean it genuinely: what are we predicting here? Shot accuracy? Positional play (presuming that better positioning means fewer shots get blocked and/or miss)? Given that it doesn’t seem to be a proxy for scoring chances — and why is that? I can’t figure it out, because I completely follow your logic on how to narrow down to shots on net, and it seems like those should correlate positively to scoring chances — I guess I’m just curious about what it does measure.
I agree that each team would need its own weighting (VerWEIGHT? VerNUMBERS?) for it to make sense. Different systems play differently when it comes to how shot frequency and shot quality correlate. OH HEY look at the latest Copper&Blue post, which ends up being about basically that.
If you have the data (and it doesn’t eat too much time), I’d be interested to see the HtH VR, HtH Corsi, and HtH +/- for the whole team. Haha, I feel like I need a larger sample size to understand what we’re seeing here.
by spokeinthebandwagon on May 28, 2010 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions
I have those
but only for the Sharks series… I’ll have my series report up later today.
But re: predictive value — that’s what I was trying to do with the pink squares, kinda. I think so far, so good (maybe we’re overperforming a bit), as far as predicting goal differentials (which is what it’s optimized for — if I had the regular season data I could optimize for scoring chances).
Speak not the o-word before we have the chalice in hand! We're performing, let's leave it at that!
Looking forward to the Sharks series summary, though!
by spokeinthebandwagon on May 28, 2010 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh, I forgot to mention
What I really should be doing is adjusting by period and/or game situations (both PP/ES/SH and down 1, tied, up 1, etc.). Which I can actually do now, when/if I put in the effort…
And
The more I think about it, the more I feel like there has to be a team split somewhere. Yes, missed shots are bad, but if you miss one shot and the puck never leaves the offensive zone, you have a negative VerRating even though the other team had no offensive to speak of.
Given the “dominant play but no results to show for it” character of some games we’ve seen though, maybe it’s okay to keep things as-is for now.
Yeah, adjusting for game situation probably wouldn't go amiss.
I wonder how much of a difference it makes if you weight things differently for PP/PK situations. My instinct says it should help guys like Sopel or Madden who do a lot of penalty killing, or guys like Kane and Hossa who take big minutes on the PP. Especially in series where we spend a significant amount of time on special teams (as with the 5-0 penalties in the first SJ game, where we spent a sixth of the game killing penalties) it might make a difference.
As far as team splits, could you somehow factor in zone time? So when Toews and Kane are cycling like crazy motherfuckers and taking the random shot at goal, only to regain control and keep the cycle alive, it counts for more than when Versteeg dangles in, promptly loses the puck, and the other team takes it back out of the offensive zone. Heck, I’m not even sure that the NHL keeps zone time stats, but maybe you could proxy it with offensive/defensive zone faceoffs? That might make things way too complicated though, just a thought.
by spokeinthebandwagon on May 28, 2010 11:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Hawerchuk
and some of the other pros use zone starts as a proxy, as far as I know.
I’m thinking about going by time between plays, but I’d have to hope that the randomness in what actually gets tracked evens out over the course of a game — not sure if that’d actually be true.
I adjust for zone start in most of my analysis too, and Bolland has the toughest in the playoffs, but the point of the HtH analysis was to show what was actually happening out there.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Yeah, I think it's a useful concept
As I posted in C&B (and thanks for doing the work on the Vancouver series, btw!), I think it’s tough to capture a lot without complicating the analysis — adjusting by game situation (which I didn’t do) and looking at opportunity costs of one matchup changing what the other matchups are (which I did a primitive/naive version of in the last section here).
Often times it’s the deviation of finer-grained numbers like chances or Corsi from “what’s actually happening out there” that makes it interesting – you might say that Bolland scored more goals or had higher +/- than his scoring chance differential would suggest, but to figure out if it was luck, or some unaccounted-for factor, requires us to dig deeper.
As one of those coaches who loved data (and isn't quite up on the state of the art techniques for mining and analizing it)
I would have loved to have had yuo around when I was crudely writing diddly simple Excel programs for tracking and compiling player stats
Confusion will be my epitaph.
I'll just be over here
doodling hearts until I can read this on a bigger screen, and take in graphs/charts and text at the same time, then I might have some questions about the equations. But seriously, awesome work
Watch it with the jinxing!
Time for some thrillin' heroics!
by shinkicker on May 28, 2010 10:57 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
random thoughts
1. Fucking clinic on using statistics without becoming enslaved to them.
2. A lot of people get paid a lot of monay for doing a lot less than what you have done here. Thank you so much for the stupefying investment of time and effort required.
3. Hockey may not be “Billy Beaneable”, but if it is, you’re farther along this path than anything I’ve seen.
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
Trot over to the Oilers blogosphere.
If you like stats and hockey, right now the Oilers fans are leading the bunch (this post was inspired by a scoring chance analysis on an Oilers blog). A lot of the metrics talked about here got their genesis in Oilers stat-heads’ posts. SCH has our own share of good thinkers though!
I’m anticipating what we’ll do while we’re bored over the off-season when it comes to coming up with new ways to think about hockey.
by spokeinthebandwagon on May 28, 2010 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions
reply button not working
attempted reply succed to spoke:
I poked around a bit at Copper & Blue- wore out my welcome actually (I wasn’t a troll though- promise!)
I was impressed though, but I actually had Derek Zona in mind as a bit of a counterexample when I wrote #1 above.
I think VerStig is giving Derek a good look at his (yes his!) heels by now.
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
I wouldn't go that far...
Or, at least, what the guys over there do as a whole. That new article that spokeinthebandwagon mentioned is pretty rad.
I have to wonder, if shooting volume and shooting percentage have the same distribution on their season level analysis, why they are 1% and 90% correlated with goal differential in my game-by-game analysis. Funny how we’re getting at a similar question though, of quality vs. volume.
The difference VerStig, IMO, is that the guys over at Copper and Blue have become slaves to their stats
I don’t mean to knock them because what they do is pretty awesome, especially for the hardcore hockey stats junkie. But it is for the most part quantitative research and they seem to have a hard time opening their minds to aspects of hockey that can not be placed into nice neat columns.
Your posts, the basis of your formulae and your commentary offer a more well-rounded insight into what is truly affecting the numbers.
I, for one, appreciate that and am always impressed. Plus, your graphics work really well for someone like me who is into stats, but kinda sorta likes pictures too.
Well, folks, I want to thank you for being here for the recording of my live comedy album. Funny material and laughter will be dubbed in later.
by ChicagoNativeSon on May 28, 2010 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions
I second CNS
in particular that quantitative research is great, and I’m totally blown away VerStig by your ability to compile the numbers into things that model more and more what we see every game.
Seems to me that what the statheads often lose is the importance of game context and style of play; I really appreciate your new analysis in addressing the fact that not every puck thrown in the vicinity of the net is a positive contribution.
Keep up the really insanely awesome work.
few things
1. I’d love to have some of my more idiotic comments back yesterday. it doesn’t help your cause to have hangers-on marring your efforts. Sorry.
2. In our quest for understanding, there are multiple levels from which to view any phenomenon. At the deep, statistical level, most of us are way over our head.
3. Exaggerated example: looking at a bunch of zeros and ones is not the ideal level for humans to use in understanding what a computer does.
4. People with expertise at an important but esoteric level face a built-in forest/trees stumbling block.
5. Among those who posess the esoteric knowledge of statistics necessary for deep analysis, you seem to appreciate this fact best, and you can toggle between different levels of understanding/interpretation with facility.
6. These points are general to human affairs. We could be having a nearly identical discussion about sociology, Wall Street, etc.
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
by cliffkoroll on May 29, 2010 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions
Can you please explain #1?
Also, I actually hadn’t read your comment when I said the exact thing about becoming “slaves to their stats.” It’s just the impression I get when I read discussions over at Copper and Blue.
Well, folks, I want to thank you for being here for the recording of my live comedy album. Funny material and laughter will be dubbed in later.
by ChicagoNativeSon on May 29, 2010 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions
it all started
with this, which I stand by.
I then challenged this from Geoff Detweiler:
Plus/minus doesn’t tell you much.
I should have said: "plus/minus is a compact, objective, robust, relevant, easy-to-understand statistic. In terms of information provided per unit of effort and complexity, it’s very good.
Like any statistic, it has limitations and associated caveats and cannot be the sole basis for any conclusion (as I said originally, I’m willing to be convinced otherwise.)"
Instead, I went down a stupid, ill-thought-out, and counterproductive path.
Bottom line: I am no closer today to understanding how good Kimmo is. My original question (roughly Soupy calibre?) remains unaddressed. It’s ok- I can wait another 6.5 hours at this point.
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
by cliffkoroll on May 29, 2010 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions
re: slavery
I’ve always admired your clarity of thought.
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
by cliffkoroll on May 29, 2010 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions
And the opposite of ignoring the stats
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
by Derek Zona on May 29, 2010 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Rec'd
didn’t even finish reading yet, but this looks terrific.
Not sure I understand the tie-in to my comment, but thanks for sharing.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I’ve got a hockey game to go to.
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
It was Derek who linked to this article
during the Sharks series when you were discussing Bolland. So this is the 2nd time he’s thrown this at you. I think he’s trying to send you a message. ;)
Well, folks, I want to thank you for being here for the recording of my live comedy album. Funny material and laughter will be dubbed in later.
by ChicagoNativeSon on May 30, 2010 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm innerested in your thoughts
I kinda figgered he’s saying: pooh-poohers of statistics (me, in his eyes) don’t like having their confrimation bias challenged- i.e. I’m closed-minded to his approach. And I get that there are a lot of people who simply believe what they want to believe, and this can be aggravating.
No way this gets properly sorted in a thread like this- some pretty hairy epistemological shit here. Paraphrasing Nietzsche’s take: convictions are a kind of hardening of the arteries.
I will say this: the unflinching eye of the statistician is as subject to confirmation bias as the rest of us- in the way questions are posed, data are collected and analyzed, etc. I understand the disciplined approach to the trap of confirmation bias Derek is hankering for, but his sanctuary is a bit illusory.
Awareness of the ubiquity of confirmation bias and brutal self-honesty can help, but there’s no magic bullet.
In the specific case- I loves me some Blackhawks, but I’m not particularly threatened by the idea that Thornton outplayed, or even “drilled”, Bolland, if that is what happened. I don’t feel like I have an emotional dog in this race, but my impression from watching the games is that this is not quite accurate, and I don’t think I’m clinging to some illusion only because I’m ignoring compelling arguments issuing from Derek’s analysis.
Does this make any sense?
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
Complete sense
I actually thought about my comment to Derek below a few times today and was going to re-reply with basically what you just said (but without as much eloquence).
Stats can be deceiving. The statistician, as you stated, can also be a victim confirmation basis. Without questioning Derek’s obvious mastery of numbers, who’s to say that he didn’t notice that Hawks fans were heralding Bolland, predetermined that he didn’t believe it was warranted (hence his post), and consciously or unconsciously used data and equations that would confirm his own “eye test”? I’m not saying he did, just using this an example.
Did he use the best data? I don’t think he did. Did he use the best equations? That I can’t answer, but I thought VerStig offered a compelling counterargument with his own results.
Many advances throughout history have come from outside of the benefiting field. To be closed-minded to suggestions just because someone doesn’t have a mastery of what you do, will quickly turn you into a dinosaur. To continually respond to admitted lay people with “prove it” suggests a group think that hides behind the falsity that “numbers don’t lie” and that they cannot be questioned.
Well, folks, I want to thank you for being here for the recording of my live comedy album. Funny material and laughter will be dubbed in later.
by ChicagoNativeSon on May 30, 2010 9:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Good Read!
I am of the mindset of you need to do both, stats and observation tempering one with the other.
Case in point is Marian Hossa so far in these playoffs, only 11 points in 16 games, though those who have watched all the games would in a large majority (I believe) state his level of play is not lacking, even though the score sheet hows otherwise.
ART.I§8-11; AM I-XXVII
James Madison is my Hero!
by Toews-makes-funny-faces on May 29, 2010 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions
This is the second time you've tossed this out at us
The first time seemed to imply that we were victims of group think when it was suggested that your stats on Bolland might not tell the whole story. (I believe Bolland proved our point) So, correct me if I’m wrong, but this seems more like an insult and further confirms your resistance to the idea that statistics don’t tell the whole story and cannot always explain the less tangible aspects of what happens during a hockey game.
My comments weren’t meant as a knock on you. As I stated, what you do is awesome. I could never do it, but my mind does comprehend the basis behind your calculations. I think cliff got off on the wrong foot with you by stating on Copper and Blue
There is a meme running around SCH lately that I think is spot-on. Basically, it says that hockey is less susceptible to being explained by statistics than other sports.and from that point lost some credibility with you even though he is extremely perceptive and his questions/suggestions were very rational. No one here is suggesting that stats be ignored, only that they can be enhanced and there might be a better way to look at some things.
Personally, your continual (defensive?) shunning of this concept reminds me of IBM discounting a young upstart Microsoft.
Well, folks, I want to thank you for being here for the recording of my live comedy album. Funny material and laughter will be dubbed in later.
by ChicagoNativeSon on May 30, 2010 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions
good stuff VerStig
loved the stats (Im glad I dont have to do this stuff)
the Banksy at the end was pretty good
Hossa's Attorney says:
TAKE OFF THOSE CLOWN SHOES OR I WILL SHOOT THIS DOG!
You can still call it the VerRating though...
It stands for Volume/Effectiveness/Reliability Rating.
I’m down.
Everyone dies. It is the only true and lasting justice in life.
My Head Asploded again
You forgot the warning!
Wow, impressive! Ummm, wow. Damn
I need to read through this a few(thousand) more times to make sure I catch everything.
ART.I§8-11; AM I-XXVII
James Madison is my Hero!
by Toews-makes-funny-faces on May 28, 2010 9:52 PM CDT reply actions

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