Stanley Cup Finals Preview - Flyers' Defensemen
by McClure on May 27, 2010 11:24 AM CDT
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Moving along in our series preview, we now make our way to the Flyers' defensemen- a group as deep as the Hawks blueliners, but with differing strengths and weaknesses...and one giant six-and-a-half foot problem for Blackhawks forwards. Get some knowledge dropped on yourself after the jump...
All talk of the Flyers' blueline begins and ends with Chris Pronger. The instantaneous-as-soon-as-he's-eligible Hall of Famer and former Norris and Hart trophy winner has done exactly what he was brought to Philly to do, which is to terrorize eastern conference forwards, log heavy minutes, and contribute substantially offensively. While his quickness is starting to slip in his mid thirties, there are still very few defensemen in the game right now that affect play the way he does. He's ruthless physically, keys transitional offense with exceptional passes (if not necessarily skating the puck ahead), and has a bomb of a shot from the blue line. He has been partnered with Matt Carle, a young journeyman of an offensive defenseman who's had stops in San Jose and Tampa Bay prior to Philly. While not as imposing physically (and who the fuck is, really?) as Pronger, Carle is positionally sound in his own zone while having a fair amount of offensive polish, and his numbers clearly reflect that now having the benefit of playing along side that pituitary case.
While much of the press has been focusing on the matchup between the two behemoths of Pronger and Dustin Byfuglien (to whom Pronger is still giving up 40 lbs, by the way), to me, if I'm Peter Laviolette, I go ahead and let everyone, including the Blackhawks' coaching staff, think that's what's going to happen. While Byfuglien is definitely a bulldozer in front of opposing netminders when he feels like it, everything on that line gets funneled through Patrick Kane. Without 20 Cent, Buff doesn't get the chances he does, so don't be surprised if Pronger is sent out there to make Kane's life completely fucking miserable every shift rather than get into a slugfest with Byfuglien. Pronger specializes in bullying those smaller than he is (which is pretty much everybody), and if Mike Richards and Jonathan Toews are going to be in a stare down all series, if I were coaching, I'd be more than willing to let Carle be overmatched physically by Buff in exchange for Pronger perforating Kaner, limiting his time and space to even get the puck to the net where Byfuglien can be effective.
However, there are ways to get to this pair. As was mentioned, Carle isn't a hulking beast, and can be overmatched physically against Buff, and likely even Toews in one-on-one battles. Additionally, Pronger isn't as quick as he used to be, so if the Flyers continue to play the uptempo game that Laviolette likes, Hawk forwards should be able to get to the outside on him, and can negate his huge reach by a chip-and-chase game at the Flyer line...just as long as they get to that puck before he does.
Things don't drop off much from there with the Flyers' second pair, comprising of another giant and an Olympian. The Flyers acquired Braydon Coburn from the Thrashers for Alexei Zhitnik two years ago, and it's one of the primary reasons Don Waddell isn't their GM anymore. Coburn is only an inch shorter than Pronger, and clocks in at the same listed weight of 220 lbs. However, Coburn doesn't use his physical stature in nearly the same way Pronger does, relying on his range and reach to cover defenders, as he moves exceptionally well for a big man, though many believe he could be far more physical. Similarly, his partner Kimmo Timonen is a positionally sound defender and very quick, but severely undersized and relatively uninterested in much physical play either in the corners or in front of the net. And unlike Dan Boyle or Brian Rafalski, for an undersized d-man, Timonen does indeed have a clue in his own end, at least positionally despite his physical limitations. At the other end of the ice, while Coburn has still yet to totally figure out what his role is offensively, Timonen is one of the smoothest power play quarterbacks in the league, and won't hesitate for a second to sneak in down low, either at even strength or with the advantage. And both can log very heavy minutes in all situations, with Coburn averaging 24 minutes and Timonen averaging 26.
While one could look at those regular season numbers and think that the pair could be there for the taking with the minuses they carried, both are significantly on the plus side of the ledger to this point, with Coburn at a +7, and Timonen at a +6. However, to this point, the Flyers as a defensive group have yet to face a team as deep as the Hawks here in the playoffs, and these two could be the statistical beneficiaries of playing against teams that were only one line deep. In the finals, this pair figure to see a lot of Marian Hossa, Patrick Sharp, and Troy Brouwer - three players never known to shy away from physical contact or play down low, which could lead one to believe that the Hawks' second line will give the pair all they can handle.
Things drop off drastically for the Flyers' third pair of Krajicek and Parent. Laviolette has been severely limiting their minutes, and he's able to do so because of the stamina of his top two pairs. While neither is a total goatfuck when on the ice, they're both fairly inconsistent and have all of the typical shortcomings that you'd find in a 5th and 6th defensemen. Expect to see them only when the other four need a breather, in a penalty killing situation where Parent is most effective, or once the series shifts to Philadelphia where Laviolette can get them out for the occasional shift against Eager and Burish.
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As I was reading this,
Pronger threw an elbow at my head.
"If you've only got one day to live, come see the Toronto Maple Leafs. It'll seem like forever." - Pat Foley
Section 324: We're on the list.
by deathmonkey on May 27, 2010 11:47 AM CDT reply actions 3 recs
believing he is 220
is like believing Buff is 235
Hossa's Attorney says:
TAKE OFF THOSE CLOWN SHOES OR I WILL SHOOT THIS DOG!
by BigCSouthside on May 27, 2010 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions
The funny part
Is he is actually listed at 214. I personally think they just haven’t updated his bio since he was drafter in 1993.
/sarcasm
"Chris Pronger sneaked in the back door...banged it home."
Flyers Television Play-by-Play Man: Jim Jackson
when he was drafted, he was 190 pounds
he had to run around in the shower in order to get wet
Confusion will be my epitaph.
oddly, for a future HOF guy
for his first few years he was often listed among the worst #1 draft picks ever
D mature slower
Confusion will be my epitaph.
That's why it'll be interesting
to see what happens with Barker later on in his career.
"If you've only got one day to live, come see the Toronto Maple Leafs. It'll seem like forever." - Pat Foley
Section 324: We're on the list.
I recall mentioning that once or twice
and getting a rather chilly reception to it
Confusion will be my epitaph.
Yes, I got that many times too,
but maybe in the future we will both be vindicated. I forgot who exactly said it, but one of the talking heads somewhere had said it takes about 600 games for a D man to really come into his own in the NHL.I just hope whenever Barker does, we don’t feel his wrath.
"If you've only got one day to live, come see the Toronto Maple Leafs. It'll seem like forever." - Pat Foley
Section 324: We're on the list.
hope whenever Barker does, we don’t feel his wrath.
Doesn’t matter. The Hawks didn’t have the cap room to be able to afford to wait…
Generally,
I hear about 300 is the benchmark for when you really see D mature and come into their game. Some take longer, some are at it sooner (think Doughty, but how fucking good that kid is going to be if he continues to get better all the way to 300?)
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on May 27, 2010 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions
300 games is roughly 4 full seasons - that sounds about right for the point where you know
And I’m thinking NHL games, not minors
Confusion will be my epitaph.
Yeah, the clock starts ticking on NHL games and stops again in the A.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on May 27, 2010 7:56 PM CDT up reply actions
wasn't he drafted 2nd overall?
Daigle being #1, of course.
Or did I miss some subtle joke there?
But when it was suggested to him that Toews v. Kane seems likely to become a sidebar to every future international hockey tournament, he smiled and said: "I'd like us to win something together, too."
(Tweets @ChiBlackhawks and blogs at Blackhawks Down Low.)
by chiblackhawks on May 27, 2010 10:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Indeed - he was the #2 overall pick in 1993
I don’t think the listings I was referring to intended to limit themselves to #1 overall picks, but rather the very low picks
Confusion will be my epitaph.
alternate photo caption
“You see what happens? You see what happens when you fuck a stranger in the ass?”
Hossa's Attorney says:
TAKE OFF THOSE CLOWN SHOES OR I WILL SHOOT THIS DOG!
or the censored version...
"You see what happens? You see what happens when you fuck FIND a stranger in the ass ALPS?"
*I can’t remember who pointed out that this was the censored version, but I still can’t get over it.
*formerly known as "gobobbles" (please see my profile for explanation)
by Cloudhauler on May 27, 2010 11:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Whoa...
That’s weird enough to kinda be good.
Rock Over London
Rock on Chicago
Diet Pepsi
Uh-Huh!
by Campbell32 on May 28, 2010 4:39 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
okay I chuckled
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
by cliffkoroll on May 28, 2010 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions
never realized before
that Coburn is as big as Pronger. I guess b/c (as mentioned) he definitely doesn’t play like he’s that big.
Exactly
It’s one thing that a lot of Flyers fans have been complaining about forever. He needs to use his size. And he really is a VERY fast skater for how big he is. If he could combine the two he could kill people.
"Chris Pronger sneaked in the back door...banged it home."
Flyers Television Play-by-Play Man: Jim Jackson
you know who else is pretty big?
Shane “i should be on the 9th hole right about now” O’Brien.
Reggie Dunlop: What are you guys doing?
Steve Hanson: Puttin' on the foil!
Jeff Hanson: Every game!
Jack Hanson: Yeah, you want some?
are we talking about the same Shane?
The guy I know is called Shane “Party at the Roxy” O’Brien.
But when it was suggested to him that Toews v. Kane seems likely to become a sidebar to every future international hockey tournament, he smiled and said: "I'd like us to win something together, too."
(Tweets @ChiBlackhawks and blogs at Blackhawks Down Low.)
by chiblackhawks on May 27, 2010 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions
My thoughts:
Pronger and Carle will see more time against the Hawks #2 line.
While I agree that it may be tempting for Coach L to send Pronger out to “perforate” Kane, I’m reminded of the old saw: you can’t hit what you can’t catch. I don’t think it plays well for a series to have a 35-year-old Pronger chasing Crazy 88 all over the ice. If that’s the game they want, part of me says “bring it on.” Teams have been trying to run Kane all year, with very little success, for two reasons: see the old saw above for 1, and the second is that Kane may be small but he’s pretty fucking fearless and a lot tougher than most folks know.
So it may be better for Philly to have Coburn wrestling with Buff and Timonen using his mobility to help the forwards with DDN.
teaching respect for the Indian, one Red Wing fan at a time.
I have to agree 110%
and another thing is Pronger and Kimmo have been getting a decent amount of time together lately so they might just play that more frequently while having Carle and Coburn playing more time together.
"Chris Pronger sneaked in the back door...banged it home."
Flyers Television Play-by-Play Man: Jim Jackson
i haven't figured out yet
if he’s “fearless” or just young and doesn’t know any better. Though I guess practically speaking, those two often amount to the same thing.
by puppetmasterp on May 27, 2010 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Kane in space against Pronger is about the best matchup the Hawks are going to get in this series. Toews is no slouch on his skates either and Pronger is definitely more vulnerable to guys who can get wide in a hurry than he used to be.
We’ve had this discussion over at Japers’: Timonen is one of the most underrated shutdown guys in the league because of his puck-denial abilities. There’s basically no guy who does a better job against Ovechkin in the entire league for exactly that reason – AO has a really hard time getting the puck when Timonen is on the ice. If he can do the same to Kane, you’re right; it’s a much better matchup to set Pronger/Carle against the Sharp line and let Coburn and Timonen, two guys who skate very well, play against the top line.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on May 27, 2010 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Finals wallpaper & schedule
Blackhawks site has new Finals wallpapers w/ schedules up.
Linkage: http://blackhawks.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=47379
yea I got mine up yesterday
I had a tough time choosing between, but I thought the one w/ Toews and Richards was perfect for work and the other one is at home!
Photo comment:
Grey ? cap: $25
Tickets on the glass for ECF game: $1000
Spending crucial moments of the game talking on your cell phone: priceless clueless.
teaching respect for the Indian, one Red Wing fan at a time.
what about the dude in the blue sweat shirt? He's in a trance like state
And the chick with The Riddler on the phoneis trying to see the sweat line on the guy’s (#20 who is he anyway) ass crack.
Chewing gum?
"Alex didn't cause Campbell's injury, the boards did."
Is the dude in the green yawning?
I went to a fight the other night and a hockey game broke out.
- Rodney Dangerfield
Nice work McClure
Insightful breakdown. The forward breakdown should be interesting. I don’t know enough about the Flyers to know if they will be forechecking hard and making life hell on Hawks D-men. The extra room the Hawks had to bring it out of the zone was a huge help against the Sharks as opposed to the myriad of turnovers in our own end earlier in the playoffs. Any answers??
a lot of people are saying these two teams are mirrors of each other
while i dont agree with that directly, there are similarities, forechecking is one area they are similar, the difference in my opinion is speed and transition
Hossa's Attorney says:
TAKE OFF THOSE CLOWN SHOES OR I WILL SHOOT THIS DOG!
by BigCSouthside on May 27, 2010 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Soooo,
Like 8 minutes for Hendry then?
This layoff is way too long for my liking, at least as a fan (I realize the rest is good for the players.) I just need to hibernate until 5 or so on Saturday, leaving just enough time to get in a couple drinks before the puck drops.
by Hjammer of the Gods on May 27, 2010 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Yep, thats for the series
"Now, why don't you take it easy group Captain, and please make me a drink of grain alcohol and rain water..."
by thepuckstopshere31 on May 27, 2010 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Hah
Man it would be nice to have Kim Johnsson for this one. If that fucker isn’t actually dead, like we all suspect, I’ll kill him myself.
by Hjammer of the Gods on May 27, 2010 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, whose left on the playoff rooster
Boynton? There’s a shitty thought!
"Now, why don't you take it easy group Captain, and please make me a drink of grain alcohol and rain water..."
by thepuckstopshere31 on May 27, 2010 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Forechecking is a specialty of this Flyers team
It’s the main thing that keeps the offense (and PP) humming, IMO. Even the D-Men get into the act upon occasion (with a forward rotating back).
One of the few bursts of insight from the national announce team (can’t remember if I first heard it on NBC or Versus) was that Halak wasn’t comfortable handling the puck behind his net. They called it a mistake waiting to happen. The Flyers put pressure on him to make decisions all series long and in a few instances made them pay for it. (Which may be part of the answer to the question “WTF was Halak thinking on that first goal in Game 5?”)
I have no concept of how good Niemi is with the puck, but he’ll likely be tested in this series.
Ya,
I’m hoping Q makes Nemo watch that Halak Game 5 clusterfuck about a thousand times between now and Saturday night.
teaching respect for the Indian, one Red Wing fan at a time.
In this week off, I figure Niemi is watching a fair bit of video viewing of Philly playoff games
Confusion will be my epitaph.
We run a two man forecheck
Until we have the lead. Once we have the lead we play a one man forecheck/trap game. That is where I have a bad feeling you guys will crush us. We are pretty good at the trap, but the speed that you have will negate it, IMO. But it could also be bad for you because our counter-attack after a bad turnover is really good. That’s how we piled them on against Halak in the last series. He was left out to dry A LOT by his players pushing up too hard.
"Chris Pronger sneaked in the back door...banged it home."
Flyers Television Play-by-Play Man: Jim Jackson
Did he say
TRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP ?!?!?!
Where’s Chris when you need him.
teaching respect for the Indian, one Red Wing fan at a time.
working street corners
and turning people into newts.
I got a block of wood to carry around, it soothes my superstitious soul. If the knocking doesn't help I can just beat myself over the head with it until I don't care anymore.
it's entirely possible this isn't sarcasm
he did, he did indeed
Kaner’s Revenge has my permission to go ahead and post that Ackbaar pic again. damn.
by puppetmasterp on May 27, 2010 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions
add this at the end of the picture string (remove the forward slash first and put this before the >
height=“200”
Hossa's Attorney says:
TAKE OFF THOSE CLOWN SHOES OR I WILL SHOOT THIS DOG!
by BigCSouthside on May 27, 2010 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Wow, both of these pics are AWESOME!
"Chris Pronger sneaked in the back door...banged it home."
Flyers Television Play-by-Play Man: Jim Jackson
yes, we saw the first one a ton during the Preds series
and then i got mean and bitchy at someone or posting it one too many times (I AM sorry about that KR, btw). the Preds fans (Chris Burton especially) were adamant that they do not trap. But since you openly admitted to the trap thing….
by puppetmasterp on May 27, 2010 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I won't Lie about it
because we do use it, sort of. I like to think of it as a hybrid trap because we at least still do have one forward on the forecheck, unlike a normal trap with them all back in the neutral zone waiting to “trap”.
"Chris Pronger sneaked in the back door...banged it home."
Flyers Television Play-by-Play Man: Jim Jackson
some of the well recognized versions of the trap use one (or 2) forwards doing some pressuring/steering
sometimes seen as a 3 – 1 – 1 or 4 – 1 sort of thing.
Confusion will be my epitaph.
I suspect
you’ll be surprised at how quickly the Hawks get back when mistakes are made.
I’ve seen great improvement throughout the playoffs in both decision-making and the angles/positions taken in those instances, and it’s not like we sucked before that.
teaching respect for the Indian, one Red Wing fan at a time.
Example #1
Versteeg tracking down his own mistake to lead to Ladd’s goal
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." -- Alvin Dark
So if I understand correctly
if Kane doesn’t have room to skate around Pronger he will chip into the corner and outchase him to the puck. Now I’m invisioning Pronger coming in hard on Kane against the boards for the check… I’m not sure I like this picture.
Let me edit that for you
Pronger comes in hard at Kane against the boards, Kaner ducks away and Pronger leaves a giant Canadian tree shaped hole as he goes crashing through the wood and glass.
Watch it with the jinxing!
Time for some thrillin' heroics!
by shinkicker on May 27, 2010 1:16 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Let me edit that further
Pronger comes in hard at Kane against the boards, Kaner ducks away and Pronger still manages to stick-check the puck off him.
And the Toews comes along and scoops up the puck and airmails it past Leighton. Lights and loud noises follow
Watch it with the jinxing!
Time for some thrillin' heroics!
by shinkicker on May 27, 2010 1:29 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
And since he's taken himself out of the play
The puck squibbles right to Byfuglien, who, upon seeing the Chicken McNuggets in the back of the net, tucks it through Leighton’s five hole
Pronger stick-checks away it from Kane?
Who are you kidding?
Don’t sleep on Pronger’s stick-skills. He’s one of the best in the league at taking it off forwards’ sticks with a poke check. He’s fucking gigantic with a large wingspan even for his already-huge frame.
Kane can make Captain Elbows look silly, but don’t be surprised if the most common outcome is losing the puck on that poke check.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on May 27, 2010 5:07 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm actually less worried about Kane than I am about Sopel
Kane never really seems to get hit, and when he does, he may lose the puck the first time, but the next time, he makes you pay. Then he does some punky celebration and that makes the other guy want to get him more, and the cycle goes on.
Sopel’s skating scares the shit out of me. Then all of a sudden he’ll do a fin o rama ( I stole this from somebody) in front of his own net. that’s what scares me. tTat he pulls it off and thinks he can pull it off.
Chewing gum?
"Alex didn't cause Campbell's injury, the boards did."
yes but he does have his moments as secondary goalie
I went to a fight the other night and a hockey game broke out.
- Rodney Dangerfield
Sopel is a mystery of the universe, and I love him for it
He still scares the shit out of me, but I love him for it.
Chewing gum?
"Alex didn't cause Campbell's injury, the boards did."
I treat Sopel like a tennis match.
What the FUCK Sopel?…… Great block Sopel!…… What the FUCK Sopel?…..Great play Sopel!
Who's leg do I have to hump to get a drink around here?-Brian
Sopel vs Versteeg -- our love/wtf relationship
Catfish:
VERSTEEG!:
by VerStig on May 27, 2010 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions 9 recs
Sopel is radio
And Versteeg is UV?
Watch it with the jinxing!
Time for some thrillin' heroics!
by shinkicker on May 27, 2010 3:34 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Now it all makes sense
Wait. If he’s UV, then are the glasses protecting the rest of us? Now I’m confused again.
Gonna just go watch X-Men.
Well, folks, I want to thank you for being here for the recording of my live comedy album. Funny material and laughter will be dubbed in later.
by ChicagoNativeSon on May 27, 2010 11:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Ok, Dan
Well, folks, I want to thank you for being here for the recording of my live comedy album. Funny material and laughter will be dubbed in later.
by ChicagoNativeSon on May 27, 2010 11:55 PM CDT up reply actions
hm...
long time lurker, first time posting in a WHILE. props on these graphs…although VERSTEEG!’s looks suspiciously like a logger-pro SHM graph.
dear god, i hope i’m wrong on this. if not, i’ve been spending way too much time in the lab.
haha, welcome (back?)!
Actually, I just used the Google Chart Tools for these… so anybody can make them!
awesome.
i’m swearing off google for a little while, though – i need recovery time after messing with sketch-up. that program is CRACK. regardless, thanks for the pointer.
This makes me want to take your toys away from you, haha
poor Steeger
But when it was suggested to him that Toews v. Kane seems likely to become a sidebar to every future international hockey tournament, he smiled and said: "I'd like us to win something together, too."
(Tweets @ChiBlackhawks and blogs at Blackhawks Down Low.)
by chiblackhawks on May 27, 2010 10:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Part of a larger ad campaign
that’s been running for a few years now. That’s not bad, but I liked the post-2008 World Series one a little better, personally.
(As you can imagine, they’ve since taken that one down.)
I hope they didn't spend too much money on that ad campaign
incase they end up having to put their foots in their mouths.
And while Anahiem returns to the locker room, Todd Bertuzzi is cuffed and returns to the squad car.
by Detroit Must Die on May 27, 2010 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Are you suggesting
we’re overestimating the quality of Chicago’s poutine?
(That’s what the ad’s about, right?)
haha, I’m glad you said it because I was just coming here to say the exact same thing.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 27, 2010 10:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Wysh is giving the advantage at Forward to Philly
did I miss something watching these two teams play?
Hossa's Attorney says:
TAKE OFF THOSE CLOWN SHOES OR I WILL SHOOT THIS DOG!
I wondered too.
I mean, seriously. For all the credit people are giving Philly in this series, you’d think they actually scored more than 90 points in the regular season. I get that they’re a good group of players, but I wish certain writers would be more restrained when trying to force parity in this series.
Still, I somehow feel comforted that lots of people are seemingly fawning over Philly. Anything that keeps the Hawks’ want levels higher is a good thing. Count these guys out all you want, it hasn’t worked yet.
by spokeinthebandwagon on May 27, 2010 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions
well someone had to pick Philly
it’s getting kinda boring with everyone backing the hawks, except for Flyers fans and bitter fanbases (read: Blues, Canucks, Red Wings….).
by puppetmasterp on May 27, 2010 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, but
You do have to consider that the injury bug hit them harder than it hit us, and that some people did in fact pick Philly to make it this far at the beginning of the season. They had reasons for doing so, and I’d assume it means they’re a much more dangerous team than their regular season record this year suggests.
Ditto on the want, though.
I put on my homer hat.
Sometimes I wonder if people underestimate how much injuries bit the Hawks this year. Hossa was an off-season surgery, so I think people tend to discount the fact that we missed one of our primary forwards for three months. We lost Toews, who is not only a scoring powerhouse but also the heart of the team, for a month and a half. We lost Campbell, who adds the ‘dynamic’ to our dynamic defense. We were healthy (or getting there, in the case of Campbell) in the playoffs, but I think people tend to write off the Hawks’ injuries because the damn team kept winning.
by spokeinthebandwagon on May 27, 2010 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions
If there's anything people are understimating on the Hawks
It’d be our depth relative to the Flyers, I’d think. That’s how we weathered the storm so well that we even have a commenter saying that “we don’t need Hossa.”
Seriously, even if their 4th line is better than ours, it’s not like they’re going to get much more ice time out of theirs, and it’s countered by our better 3rd defensive pairing. I’m going to laugh at this when Eager gets another 2-goal game.
If Eags ever gets a hat trick, you will never hear from me again.
At that point, I’ll have finally drunk my liver into submission.
by spokeinthebandwagon on May 27, 2010 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions
if Eager gets a hat trick
you will know we fell into bizarro world again
I went to a fight the other night and a hockey game broke out.
- Rodney Dangerfield
The third goal
will be a drop pass from Sopel on a 2 on 1 breakaway.
teaching respect for the Indian, one Red Wing fan at a time.
the Campbell injury vs. the Preds
is the one I think people overlook the most, b/c without knowing the team well, it’s harder to see how Soupy being gone effected us. I think it’s the most important difference to consider in the “Preds D gave Chicago fits, and Philly is similar” debate.
But yes, I think Philly was a shell of the team they could have been all season, and have finally found their stride now. All the more reason to be cautious.
by puppetmasterp on May 27, 2010 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't forget about Bolland's surgery
and Burish, though I know he’s not a favorite of many. And Seabs was out twice, too. And one of our Dmen died for crying out loud!
by Katherine215 on May 27, 2010 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions
on a minutes played (and impact basis) Burish is rather insignificant
Burish though, is notable
Confusion will be my epitaph.
Yes I did mean precisely that
along with Seabs too
Johnsson (may he rest in peace) wasn’t here long, but we sent Barker away to get him, thus the massive hole in teh D corps when Johnson dies, and Campbell was down, and Seabs was down …
Confusion will be my epitaph.
I agree
but our 4th line was not as dynamic this year as it was last year. They started to have some chemistry later in the season but we missed that a bit earlier in the season. So while the others are definitely more notable, I think Burish’s absence did make some difference.
by Katherine215 on May 27, 2010 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions
One of our D-men died...
Imagine still having Barker. We’re doing fine so far without both regardless.
Not to mention
how many more points we’d have had if we had playoff Buff for the regular season.
teaching respect for the Indian, one Red Wing fan at a time.
Toews was out six games
not six weeks.
But I agree with the rest of this comment
Watch it with the jinxing!
Time for some thrillin' heroics!
by shinkicker on May 27, 2010 4:08 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
The final footnote on the article is the difference:
This is based on this postseason’s action, and the fact that the Flyers’ ability to score with balance and attack in gritty, fore-checking waves has been a determining factor in their success.
We played you guys during our “boat is sinking” stage of the season and still some how pulled off a win. But even still, I don’t count that regular season game to mean ANYTHING compared to the SCF.
"Chris Pronger sneaked in the back door...banged it home."
Flyers Television Play-by-Play Man: Jim Jackson
I think that was one of the first cannon balls
to cross the prow. Then OV smashed the stern the next day.
Watch it with the jinxing!
Time for some thrillin' heroics!
by shinkicker on May 27, 2010 3:36 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Forgot about that
my bad.
"Chris Pronger sneaked in the back door...banged it home."
Flyers Television Play-by-Play Man: Jim Jackson
Johnsson went overboard
And was never to be seen again.
God, March SUCKED.
Watch it with the jinxing!
Time for some thrillin' heroics!
by shinkicker on May 27, 2010 4:09 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
It came in like a sea otter
and went out like a wildebeast.
teaching respect for the Indian, one Red Wing fan at a time.
I always used to say that if reincarnation were reality - coming back as an otter might be just dandy
they so apear to enjoy themselves
Confusion will be my epitaph.
weren't we in the midst of the Great Goalie Dithering Debate as well as the "interval training" mode of intensity of play at that time?
Confusion will be my epitaph.
that was the
third period is the new first period is the old second period that used to be the first period phase (also known as the clusterfuck era)
I went to a fight the other night and a hockey game broke out.
- Rodney Dangerfield
right, the "interval training" mode of game time intensity
Several minutes on & several mintues off
Confusion will be my epitaph.
lets never go back there again
I went to a fight the other night and a hockey game broke out.
- Rodney Dangerfield
motion carries
Hossa's Attorney says:
TAKE OFF THOSE CLOWN SHOES OR I WILL SHOOT THIS DOG!
by BigCSouthside on May 27, 2010 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions
i think his disclaimer was
the evaluation was based on postseason performances.
But when it was suggested to him that Toews v. Kane seems likely to become a sidebar to every future international hockey tournament, he smiled and said: "I'd like us to win something together, too."
(Tweets @ChiBlackhawks and blogs at Blackhawks Down Low.)
by chiblackhawks on May 27, 2010 10:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Finally, a place in Chicago where people know hockey
Nice analysis on the Flyers D. Haven’t read the Hawks yet. Two things:
1. I think you’re right that Pronger won’t try to match up with Dustin physically – he’ll lose most of those battles and expend more energy than a 30m a night guy can afford. He and Carle will focus on the other two guys, especially Kane. Dustin can’t do much in front if the two playmakers are pasted against the boards. That is if the Flyers can catch them. If I were Quenneville I would send Dustin after Pronger every shift. Can’t imagine anyone in hockey wearing Dustin down.
2. I disagree with you about Ryan (Not Bernie) Parent. He has been, to your use term, a goatfuck. Perhaps more than one goat. It looked to me that Laviolette started mixing Krajicek in with the other four to get some minutes out of him and rest the big 4 a little bit. Krajicek held his own when paired with someone else. Getting him regular minutes could be a big difference, especially if the series goes long.
When Richards scored the SH goal in Game 5 Parent got a plus because by the time the puck was in the net Coburn and Carle had gone off the ice, even though it was the two of them that helped set up the play for Giroux to get the puck out of the zone. We figure that Laviolette, in his genius, must have known Richards was going to score and so it was safe to get Parent on the ice. I’m pretty sure he had 21 seconds of ice time in the 1st period of that game. I think Game 7 against Boston it was 3:14 for the entire game.
BTW, Pronger isn’t always the minute leader. I’m pretty sure Coburn had more in Game 5 against Montreal, or at least he was ahead early in the third period. But the four of them have consistently been between 27-31m per game.
by flyersfaninchicago on May 27, 2010 3:49 PM CDT reply actions
So, does it suck or is it pretty cool
being in enemy territory with your team in the finals? You going to any games at the UC?
Well, folks, I want to thank you for being here for the recording of my live comedy album. Funny material and laughter will be dubbed in later.
by ChicagoNativeSon on May 28, 2010 12:35 AM CDT up reply actions
Not too bad
Enough Flyers fans here (when your team is a league’s white sheep or black sheep you find friends in every city). Just found this site which is great. For the most part have been disappointed with the level of hockey knowledge here vs. other “hockey towns.” I spend a little bit less than half my time here (the rest in SF, where of course they know zero about the game).
Being a Flyers fan when I lived in New York was interesting. MSG is the only rink that approaches Philly’s in the “likelihood of being killed by the dumbest people you’ve ever met” category. And Montreal when I was at McGill was annoying. Fans there have a sense of entitlement and whine the most, but of course they know the game because they grew up playing it.
Have tickets for Games 2 (maybe – friend may or may not be out of town) and 7 (if it gets that far). May have something for Game 6 in Philly. Overtime in game 7 sounds like fun. How about you? Lucky enough to have a ticket?
by flyersfaninchicago on May 28, 2010 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions
ah this makes more sense
I was actually wondering why you were a member here but not at Broad Street Hockey (the Flyers SBN page). Usually, that’s a characteristic indicative of a troll. But your comments here have seemed anything but troll-y….
UNLESS of course you are just the world’s most polite and articulate troll. In which case, may I point out that you suck as a troll? You might want to consider a new virtual online-line of work. Like….Hawks fan, maybe?? Think about it, we’ll keep the offer open for a while. You know where to find us.
by puppetmasterp on May 28, 2010 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm a troll elsewhere
where I’ve found some real idiots. Otherwise I’d probably be more obnoxious here. But even the uncivil Hawks fans here seem to know something about hockey so what’s the point. I object to aggressive stupidity, not zealotry.
Plus after five days off we’re kind of like soldiers on either side of the front driven insane waiting for the order to attack. After awhile you start to empathize with the other guys, at least until the puck drops. Meantime you frag Bettman and NBC, I guess.
Took a quick look at BSH but this time of year I don’t need to read more about the Flyers. I’ve been watching all the playoff games for all teams and there’s a fun group of in-game chatters linked with the philly.com site (I don’t recommend it otherwise, it’s more of a forum for cheering and bashing than discussion). I’ll check BSH out next year during the regular season when I miss some games.
Thanks for the offer. Since I left Philly I’ve adopted other teams in other sports but I’ve only been able to admire other hockey clubs, not really root for anyone else from the heart, unless they’re playing the Rangers. Good luck (sorta) tomorrow.
by flyersfaninchicago on May 28, 2010 9:26 PM CDT up reply actions
All this media day coverage
has me so pumped watching at work being useless again, but truly how the fuck can we wait another day or 2 for this to get started??
Any relation to Bernie Parent?
You must have me confused with someone else, I have never been to Chicago.
[whispers] I sexually assaulted Scottie Pippen in 1997.
The sign of a new poster:
brevity combined with accuracy!
teaching respect for the Indian, one Red Wing fan at a time.
Il n'y a pas de Quebecois
Has anyone noted that there are no Blackhawks from Quebec? Huet is from France. No “Gagne-Giroux-Briere” sounding names. Is this a long-standing organizational bias?
by flyersfaninchicago on May 27, 2010 4:31 PM CDT reply actions
oh sure
we hate French-Canadians like Burish loves your grandma.
I got a block of wood to carry around, it soothes my superstitious soul. If the knocking doesn't help I can just beat myself over the head with it until I don't care anymore.
it's entirely possible this isn't sarcasm
I doubt it
Especially since two of our all time greats, Pilote and Savard are from there.
"FACEOFF!" "Makes the pass." "FIGHT!" - 8 bit hockey
I forgot Pilote was from there
Hossa's Attorney says:
TAKE OFF THOSE CLOWN SHOES OR I WILL SHOOT THIS DOG!
by BigCSouthside on May 27, 2010 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions
How many were on Carolina in 2006, Anaheim in 2007, and Detroit in 2008? In there lies the answer you’re looking for.
2010 PLAYOFFS: CONFERENCE FINALS MVP
Dave Bolland - the vermin that gnawed on Thornton's brain while adding 2 goals and 1 assist in the series.
Or the 2008 Canadain Olympic team?
Brodeur and Bergeron- yeah they were bringing it.
I understand Quebeckers had their noses out of joint over the whole thing. pffft.
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
You mean the 2010 Olympic team. Bergeron carried Crosby’s bags (like Kopecky for Hossa) and Broduer sat on the bench whistle away pondering his once proud career and was replaced by the goaltending legend Roberto Luongo, who is now being hunted after the lovely quote “Hey, at least I didn’t give up 7. It’s an improvement.”
2010 PLAYOFFS: CONFERENCE FINALS MVP
Dave Bolland - the vermin that gnawed on Thornton's brain while adding 2 goals and 1 assist in the series.
Sheesh- is it 2010 already?
where are my meds?
and how could I forget Bobby Luuuuuu?
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
Toews' mom is French Canadian
Maybe, just once, someone will call me 'Sir' without adding, 'You're making a scene."
I smell the beginning of a "your mom" thread
But when it was suggested to him that Toews v. Kane seems likely to become a sidebar to every future international hockey tournament, he smiled and said: "I'd like us to win something together, too."
(Tweets @ChiBlackhawks and blogs at Blackhawks Down Low.)
by chiblackhawks on May 27, 2010 10:46 PM CDT up reply actions
My birth father was French Canadian
Cela peut expliquer quelques choses.
Well, folks, I want to thank you for being here for the recording of my live comedy album. Funny material and laughter will be dubbed in later.
by ChicagoNativeSon on May 28, 2010 12:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Peut-être,
mais pas tout
Maybe, just once, someone will call me 'Sir' without adding, 'You're making a scene."
Part of this is self-creating
Once he lets in a few, the other team can just play defensively and know they’ll be fine the rest of the game…
Philadelphia is 0-5 in the Stanley Cup Finals were they face a netminder that wears the numbers 29 or 31. 29- Dryden and Vernon, 31- B. Smith and Fuhr twice.
2010 PLAYOFFS: CONFERENCE FINALS MVP
Dave Bolland - the vermin that gnawed on Thornton's brain while adding 2 goals and 1 assist in the series.
I love stats like this
Hossa's Attorney says:
TAKE OFF THOSE CLOWN SHOES OR I WILL SHOOT THIS DOG!
by BigCSouthside on May 27, 2010 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Those teams also are 4 for 5 in successfully defending the Stanley Cup. Only the 1986 Oilers failed to do so and that took a Steve Smith own goal in Game 7 for that to happen.
2010 PLAYOFFS: CONFERENCE FINALS MVP
Dave Bolland - the vermin that gnawed on Thornton's brain while adding 2 goals and 1 assist in the series.
Bryan Trottier won his first Cup against Philadelphia in 1980 (NYC’s first in 40 years)
Steve Yzerman won his first Cup against Philadelphia in 1997 (Detroit’s first in 42 years)
What 2 players is Jonathan Toews most compared to? And how long has been for Chicago? And what number did those captains wear?
2010 PLAYOFFS: CONFERENCE FINALS MVP
Dave Bolland - the vermin that gnawed on Thornton's brain while adding 2 goals and 1 assist in the series.
They pretty much have no relevance to the series
But they’re fun to look at. Real stats are booooooring.
Licoln has a secretary named Kennedy
and Kennedy had a secretary named Lincoln
Confusion will be my epitaph.
So what you're saying is
Bickell should back up Niemi?
"I have only space enough to add: against the assault of desperate pandas nothing can stand."
-ChicoMaki (channeling Mark Twain)
by HungryHungryPanda on May 27, 2010 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Well
It’s not like he has many teeth to lose. Give him a pair of ironing boards and he’s all set!
"FACEOFF!" "Makes the pass." "FIGHT!" - 8 bit hockey
Hawks are 12-0
when scoring more than 1 goal.
But when it was suggested to him that Toews v. Kane seems likely to become a sidebar to every future international hockey tournament, he smiled and said: "I'd like us to win something together, too."
(Tweets @ChiBlackhawks and blogs at Blackhawks Down Low.)
by chiblackhawks on May 27, 2010 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions
The Phenominal Philly dePhence
It starts and ends with Chris Pronger. The dude is a beast, but the rest looks like a feast for the ’Hawks forwards.
Sorry, but I’m not buying that crap that Carle is a “great complement to Pronger”. He’s the only other option. Timonen is massively overrated and is the “main reason” why Pronger was brought into Philadelphia as the Flyers management had enough of Crosby and Malkin kicking their asses come playoff time with nobody capable of shutting them down. Coburn is decent and will be better as his career moves along but may be over matched here with the ’Hawks speed. If he backs up the way he consistantly did in the Montreal series allowing the Habs instant access into the offensive zone he may have a huge negative +/- in this series.
Krajicek and Parent will be too busy picking slivers out of their asses to matter much.
The Flyers dePhence is vulerable, very vulnerable.
2010 PLAYOFFS: CONFERENCE FINALS MVP
Dave Bolland - the vermin that gnawed on Thornton's brain while adding 2 goals and 1 assist in the series.
Unfortunately, he's not
Timonen is a beast and would crack every team’s top 4 and most team’s top 2. Also, Coburn is really freaking fast so I wouldn’t take much stock in this assessment from start to finish.
"I have only space enough to add: against the assault of desperate pandas nothing can stand."
-ChicoMaki (channeling Mark Twain)
by HungryHungryPanda on May 27, 2010 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Haven't really seen Kimmo much...
…I thought he had a nice Olympics, but nothing off the hook.
He was a minus player this year, with offensive numbers similar to Soupy.
I’m prepared to be convinced otherwise, but at this point, I don’t understand all the knob-slobbering over at BSH on the subject.
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
Plus/minus doesn’t tell you much. It’s a pretty weak stat. But if you want to look at shot plus/minus (as opposed to goal plus/minus), compare Pronger and Timonen:
Pronger: 0.556
Timonen: 0.542
Flyers: 0.517
Even-strength goals against while on the ice:
Pronger: 47 (1.96/60 minutes)
Timonen: 48 (2.38/60 minutes)
Timonen isn’t far behind Pronger, and that’s why we at BSH get defensive about how little respect he gets.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 27, 2010 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions
i'd mentioned this somewhere else
But i honestly think he’s the one who might surprise us the most. I know die-hard Flyers fans who love him and his consistency as a player. I could see that, consistency is one of those things that everyone loves to have but never talks about b/c it’s not flashy. Plus he’s much smaller, so in the “scary Flyers defensemen” discussions, he’s not going to be mentioned the way Pronger is.
by puppetmasterp on May 27, 2010 10:34 PM CDT up reply actions
If he's in the same league as that deutsche bank Pronger, I'll be surprised
Is he, e.g., better than Soup? Cuz I wouldn’t put Soup in Pronger’s league.
And this:
Plus/minus doesn’t tell you much.
…well, I simply think this is incorrect.
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
Plus/minus is illustrative
Probably more so than explanatory. It gives you the hard bottom line on whether a player was on the ice for even strength goals for and against. There may be mitigating factors — what matchups he drew, who was injured when he was playing, and so on — but at the end of the day, I have to think his plus/minus for the season tells you something.
Limiting shots is great, but limiting goals is more important.
what this country needs
is more statistics without mitigating factors!
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
plus/minus doesn’t account for team differences across the league, zone-start, quality of competition, quality of teammates, or variance in goaltender skill.
It’s not reliable at all. As a starting point for an analysis, sure. But you can’t draw any reliable conclusions from it.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 28, 2010 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions
Let me elaborate:
It’s not the defenseman’s job to limit goals, that’s the goalies. It’s the defenseman’s job to limit the likelihood of goals, which he does by limiting chances. Since nobody counts Flyers scoring chances (most Canadian teams have someone who do that), you look at other stats.
How good were the people he was playing against? Look at qualcomp. How good were his teammates? Look at qualteam. How much ice time did he get? Look at GAON/60. How tough were the minutes he played? Look at zone-start. How good was his goalie? Look at the save percentage when he was on the ice. How good were his forwards? Look at shooting percentage when he was on the ice. How lucky was he? Look at PDO.
Plus/minus doesn’t account for any of that, which is why plus/minus is not a good stat.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 28, 2010 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions
plus/minus is a great stat over the long haul
it is simply not a great one to use to compare an individual player from one team against an individual player from another team.
Within the team, it is extremely useful (when tempered by knowing the player’s assigned role).
Confusion will be my epitaph.
I agree with this
conisder Kimmo v. Pronger e.g.
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
by cliffkoroll on May 28, 2010 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions
And that has been refuted by the simple fact that Kimmo was on the ice for 48 goals against and Pronger 47. But I guess since Pronger was on the ice for 19 additional goals for, he’s immensely better at preventing goals, right?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 28, 2010 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions
meh
so Ovi is the best forward in the league?
(please take a minute to undertand this comment before replying.)
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
by cliffkoroll on May 28, 2010 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions
No, he’s not the best forward in the league. I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove here… You think I’m going to say he is because he has the highest plus/minus? I’m the one railing against plus/minus.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 28, 2010 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Do you not comprehend that the job of every player is to be on for more for than against?
While the D’s “primary” job is to prevent goals, they have a role at both ends of the ice – and a every coach in the world would rather have a guy who is plus over the long haul a guy who is minus.
If you can get a whole team of plus players, you have a winning team (yes, I know that special teams aren’t in the +/- calculations)
Confusion will be my epitaph.
Yeah, I was going to ask this
But you phrased it best.
I mean, how much slack can you cut a guy who is a minus player? I guess my question, then, would be — did his forwards (and/or goalie) always leave him out to dry?
I would cut a little slack to the guy you send out as a "shut down" guy against the other team's top players
Someone like Bolland or Madden, for example.
If matched against equal players, he’s likely tob a plus player – but going out against the other team’s top producers shift in and shift out, he is likely to be somewhat minus – but to hold the other’s top guys to much less production than they’d be expected to generate.
That is why you need to temper plus/minus (at the pro level) with some knowledge of the player’s role on the team.
At a youth level, it generally needs far less tempering (down to almost none).
Year after year, my best plus/minus guys were the ones who moved up and thrived at the next levels. No other stat was nearly as consistent, not even close.
Confusion will be my epitaph.
I agree plus/minus is effective in lower levels. No argument there.
But if you have to adjust for role, don’t you also have to adjust for ice time? And then don’t you have to adjust for the team he’s on? And then isn’t the stat looking really, really different? Yeah, it is. Because it isn’t an accurate reflection of that player’s individual performance.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 28, 2010 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions
the new adjustments for comp & teammates about do it
what is the true measure of the player’s individual performance?
Isn’t it that he makes the team more likely to win?
And doesn’t he do that by somehow making the team score at least one goal more than the other team?
Confusion will be my epitaph.
Not everybody contributes in a way that makes his team score one goal more. Ryan Parent’s job isn’t to make his team score one goal more. It’s to eat up as much ice time without being a goatfuck while on the ice.
It’s completely oversimplifying things by saying every player needs to score at least one goal more than the other team. Some player’s roles are simply to limit the amount of goals the other team scores. Some are to score more than they will give up, some are to play the other guys to a draw.
But even if you think the true measure of a player’s individual performance is to score more goals than the other team, plus/minus isn’t the best way to measure that. Relative plus/minus is better. Plus/minusON/60 is better. There are plenty of things better than simply plus/minus.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 28, 2010 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions
not to individually score one - but to get the team to score one more
and isn’t Parent viewed as bad?
Confusion will be my epitaph.
Parent’s terrible. Which is why his goal is to play 3 minutes of even hockey. If you want to say that’s helping the team score one goal more than the opposition, fine. But really, his job is to not eff up. It’s a lot simpler.
Again, if the individual goal is to have the team score one more goal, plus/minus is an inferior measure to RPM and +/-ON/60.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 28, 2010 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Again I think this is because the tint of our Blackhawks glasses
Our top two pairings are expected to generate a lot of offense, or at least allow for the generation of offense.
So we’re not exactly familiar with this concept — at least, not this year!
I am talking from the perspective of having coached
nothing to do with the current Hawks scenario
the only reason to have a player on your team at all is to help the team be in a better position to score at least one more gaol than the other team as consistently as possible
Confusion will be my epitaph.
Is it the job of every player to be on for more for than against? A guy like Blair Betts or Ian Laperriere aren’t getting paid to score. They aren’t expected to score more than their opponents since they’re going out against guys who clearly have more offensive skill than them. They’re going out on the ice in the defensive zone, where it’s a lot easier to give up a goal than score a goal.
In the completely over-simplified way, it’s the team’s job to outscore their opponents. But each player has a different role and therefore different expectations. So no, it’s not every player’s job to outscore their opponents. It’s some players’ jobs, it’s not all.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 28, 2010 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions
and that is where you temper plus/minus with the player's role on the team at a pro level
Confusion will be my epitaph.
I think Hawks fans are spoiled
because all of our D men are plus players. I can understand on a team that didn’t have as good a regular season that some shutdown guys would end up slightly negative, especially if offense wasn’t being generated while they were on the ice.
If nothing else, I think you’re helping me understand Timonen’s role better, even while people are saying he makes a mean PP QB (which, of course, isn’t included in +/-!)
But let’s use the Blackhawks:
Brent Sopel was a plus-3 this year. But if you take out empty-net goals and look only at even-strength, he was a minus-3.
Niklas Hjalmarsson was a plus-9 this year, but if you take out empty-net goals and look only at even-strength, he was even.
Duncan Keith led the team with a plus-21 this year, but adjust it for ice-time, take out empty-net goals, and look only at even strength, he was just barely better than Brian Campbell with a plus-0.41 per 60 minutes of ice time. Brent Seabrook was actually a team best plus-0.61 per 60 minutes of ice time.
Still a plus-minus stat, just adjusting for ice-time, removing empty net goals, and looking only at even-strength. But it’s completely different.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 28, 2010 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Right
No, this totally makes sense w/respect to what I was saying. It really does show what the roles of what these guys are doing.
As an aside, I chuckle at the thought of asking whether using even-strength hurt Hjammer and Sopes more because it eliminated SH goals more than PP goals.
Yeah. I feel like you and I are on the same page with slightly different interpretations.
And it certainly does hurt guys who create offense while short-handed, but giving a plus or a minus to people on special teams is even more likely to penalize/credit someone without merit.
BTW, I also find it interesting that only one defenseman had a negative plus/minusOFF/60. The Hawks outscored their opponents no matter who was on the ice, which is why Pronger’s plus-22 is not equal to Keith’s plus-21. Chicago had a 1.20 5-on-5 ratio, while Philadelphia had a 0.97. Who contributed more to their team? Chris Pronger.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 28, 2010 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah
Special teams is like a totally different game than 5-on-5 hockey. Love that about this sport.
I wouldn’t dispute that Keith benefited a lot from his teammates, either. But it almost begs the question — can you look at the quality of teammates linearly? If a good player plays on a bad team, how do we know that the qualteam (or other) adjustment will accurately reflect what happens when you give him a better team to play with?
No comment on who the “bad team” is :)
haha, I’m honestly not sure if you can look at it like that. You might be able to, I just don’t know how that would work.
Look at Ben Eager for example. He has a 1.09 +/-ON/60 with a qualteam of -0.174. If he had the same qualteam score as, say, Patrick Sharp (0.009), would his +/-ON/60 go up drastically? It’s possible, even likely, I just don’t know what you would do to calculate a figure.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 28, 2010 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Bully for Pronger
but I’m okay with our eggs being in many baskets.
This has been an awesome discussion to read, guys.
Watch it with the jinxing!
Time for some thrillin' heroics!
by shinkicker on May 28, 2010 12:45 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
where did the word "just" come from?
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
by cliffkoroll on May 28, 2010 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions
reply fail
intended for your 11:44 comment below.
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
by cliffkoroll on May 28, 2010 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions
So it’s a great stat, as long as you know everything that it doesn’t show? That makes it a terrible stat. You shouldn’t need to know “the player’s role” to have a stat tell you something.
So Danny Briere (minus-2) and Mike Richards (minus-2) are just as good as each other? If I wanted to learn about the ’Hawks, using your formula, Ben Eager and Troy Brouwer are equally good.
If you can’t look at a stat from players on another team to learn about them, what good is the stat?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 28, 2010 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions
Actually, I think you do need to know their roles
Isn’t that the argument that’s used when you say that you have to say things like “how good were his forwards” or “he’s… better at preventing goals?”
For instance, Corsi is hard to use for defensively-minded forwards (guh, I would know this by now), so you keep that in mind, even as you evaluate the other stuff. Interpreting statistics is as much of an art as science because of this.
In your example, Eager and Brouwer makes some sense because you’d never throw Eager out there when you need to shut down a strong offense, whereas Brouwer spent a decent amount of time on the checking line with Madden.
You could say, sure, Brouwer is a better player than Eager (and I’m sure their qualcomp-adjusted ratings while show as much), but in some ways, you could also say they did an equally good job at the roles they were tasked with.
But how am I to know that if I’m just using plus/minus? You don’t. Which is why it’s a very poor stat.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 28, 2010 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm not disagreeing with you
I’d agree it’s a statistic with limited descriptive power. But, I do also believe it gives you something unlike other statistics out there.
Arguably, you can boil +/-, SOG differential, Corsi, and Fenwick down to the same formula with different parameters:
a * dG + b * dSOG + c * dAB + d * dMS
Plus-minus uses (a, b, c, d) = (1, 0, 0, 0)
SOG differential is (a, b, c, d) = (0, 1, 0, 0)
Corsi is (a, b, c, d) = (0, 1, 1, 1)
and Fenwick is (a, b, c, d) = (0, 1, 0, 1)
You can make adjustments a la qualteam/qualcomp and so on, and interpret it how you like. But it’s a statistic all the same, and I wouldn’t totally ignore it.
But there are a lot better ways to look at it. Relative Plus/Minus is immensely better than plus/minus. That takes out the team-created disparity. Use GFON/60 minus GAON/60. That takes out the time on ice problem.
When there are much better alternatives that do the exact same thing, why use a stat with so many more flaws?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 28, 2010 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Because it tells you something that the others don't
I’m not saying you should use it, isolated from the others. Or make quick judgments from it (which, unfortunately, a lot of people do).
If it makes you happier, though - what I’ve been doing is trying to combine these into one stat where a, b, c, and d are all non-zero, not necessarily positive, and not integers. I’m effectively absorbing +/ into something larger.
Actually come to think of it
This is a really interesting idea (heh, I’ll have to credit you for this). I’m actually wrong here, my VerRating (from my FanPost) does have a = 0 but it’s derived by sticking that term on the other side of an equal sign and regressing.
So effectively, that term can be something like a residual. I think this may be a good way to adapt VerRating to individual players (or as an adjustment). Hmmmmm!!
this may be an oversimplified answer
for an oversimplified stat, but all sports look for the stats they can use to (essentially) explain the sports to non-stat-freak fans or people outside the sport.
Hockey stats, while making more sense to those here, are some odd-ball stats when you first look at them. Reading a hockey stat sheet cold can be difficult. So while even relative +/- is a better measure, it’s not as simple, and so not as much o a basic starting point.
Once you move past that base however, yes, it’s less useful than if you look to break down performance in more specific ways.
by puppetmasterp on May 28, 2010 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, that's what I always thought
I always scratched my head at the concept of fantasy hockey, because hockey stats need so much more interpretation than, say, baseball stats.
Yeah, that’s entirely true. It’s one thing for the NHL to show plus/minus, it’s another for MLB to constantly trumpet a pitcher’s Win-loss record and ERA.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 28, 2010 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions
which is why
so many Cy Young races come down to endless debates of “But this guy has more wins, but this other guy has a better ERA….” Neither tell the whole story, and rarely do you see a pitcher who is so absolutely dominant in both (without an dominant team supporting him and his stats) that the Cy Young ends up being a no-brainer.
by puppetmasterp on May 28, 2010 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions
The couple times I played fantasy baseball
I always picked players based on WHIP and K/9 alone, figuring that they were more repeatable than ERA or wins. Of course, I didn’t have nearly the kind of motivation for number crunching back then as I do now that the ’Hawks are where they are.
haha, award races are a completely different beast. Try explaining advanced metrics to 60 year old beat writers. haha
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 28, 2010 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions
I’m well aware of that. But when a stat is trying to do that – as plus/minus is – with such glaring problems, why do people still think it tells you something? If you can’t compare across teams, what does it tell you? If you can’t tell whether the guy is really good at scoring or preventing goals, what does it tell you?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 28, 2010 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions
quality of comp & quality of teamates adjustments with +/- would about do it
but having that available is a very new development.
Confusion will be my epitaph.
I could work on this (later)
BtN’s qualcomp and qualteam are based on Corsi, right? I wonder if corresponding adjustments for +/- would also come from +/-, or if you’d use Corsi.
No, they added a CorsiQoC and CorsiQoT. Qualcomp and Qualteam (the originals) are based on goals.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 28, 2010 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions
haha, yeah. I’m a huge Coris-Fenwick supporter, so I’m leaning away from qualcomp/qualteam, but they’re still useful.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 28, 2010 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions
This is true. And qualcomp and qualteam aren’t perfect either.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 28, 2010 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Allow me to be succinct
you have added zero to my understanding here- I remain unmoved.
Evaluating +/- v. alternative statistics involves weighing a loss of objectivity against greater nuance- this itself is a subjective evaluation.
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
by cliffkoroll on May 28, 2010 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions
a loss of objectivity? Adding more information does not lose objectivity.
If you really think plus/minus is a great stat, I’m sure you think win-loss record is a true indicator of goalie skill.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 28, 2010 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions
How about win-loss record as an indicator of team skill?
I don’t think +/- is worthless, any more than win-loss. It’s the ultimate measure of the end result. It’s up to you to dig deeper by interpreting what led to the result with the other stats.
Team skill is fine. But when you apply it to individual players, it completely falls apart.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 28, 2010 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm done here- you are boring me. In closing:
Your first line betrays a lack of understanding of the word ‘objective’.
Your second line would make Aristotle shake his head for ever inventing the syllogism.
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
by cliffkoroll on May 28, 2010 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Well, enjoy thinking Ovie is the best forward in the league. Good day, sir.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 28, 2010 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions
a
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
by cliffkoroll on May 28, 2010 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions
It's backward looking
It tells you what happened. But for all the reasons you mentioned, it’s hard to make predictions with it.
I predict Duncan Keith
will have a ridiculous +/- again next year.
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
by cliffkoroll on May 28, 2010 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions
It only tells you part of what happened. It doesn’t tell you why or how.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 28, 2010 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions
I just stumbled across this article on Puck Prospectus
It made me think of you:
Plus-Minus and Corsi have a Baby
haha, I saw that but am skeptical. I hope it works out, I really do, I’m not not sure I’m ready for it yet.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 28, 2010 10:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I'm not sure about it either
But for my own sake, I know I don’t have the time or the motivation to track scoring chances myself.
Actually, I just remembered - one of the reasons, maybe, why we like plus-minus (say, versus Corsi) here is that it actually reflects on our team better. What I mean is, I did this FanPost at the end of the regular season, and found that total shots directed on net differential (like team Corsi in all game situations) was negatively correlated with goal differential (which I guess is technically like team +/ in all situations).
So, it’s almost like the shot-based stat is telling us the opposite of who ends up winning games involving us. Maybe it’s just a statistical quirk with the Hawks and our “outshoot the other team at all costs” mentality.
heh,
You gotta love accidental strike outs….
/Note unceasing sarcastic laughter in background.
by burpchelischili on May 29, 2010 5:41 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm glad we're actually talking about him now though
I was getting really surprised he hadn’t come up yet.
by puppetmasterp on May 27, 2010 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Timonen is quite possibly the best player on the Flyers, night in and night out. He’s right there with Pronger.
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Broad Street Hockey - SBN's Philadelphia Flyers blog. Got goaltending? Searching since 1987.
by Travis Hughes on May 27, 2010 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions
the knowledgeable local folk seem quite taken with him wherever he plays
so I accept their opinion
Confusion will be my epitaph.
Probably. Except Timonen is waaaaaaay more underrated per unit of value.
New Zealand's 4th best Philadelphia Flyers fan
unit of value... GVT's
Since I looked them up for that other guy…
Keith is 22.4
Seabrook is 11.1
Campbell is 11.4
Hjalmarsson is 6.2
Pronger is 18.5
Carle is 10.6
Timonen is 10.4
Coburn is 4.2
From what I understand, total GVT is heavily influenced by offensive GVT. Because the Hawks were a higher scoring team, their players offensive GVT is going to be higher. I guess it’s a cart before the horse scenario though.
New Zealand's 4th best Philadelphia Flyers fan
This definitely happens – check out the GVTs from Washington over this last season. Tomas Fleischmann has a larger total GVT than Ryan Suter or Shea Weber. It’s not a great comparison across teams of differing offensive ability, in my opinion.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on May 27, 2010 6:42 PM CDT up reply actions
So I calculated GVT relative to team average GVT
Keith is 3.91
Seabrook is 1.94
Campbell is 1.99
Hjalmarsson is 1.08
Pronger is 4.82
Carle is 2.76
Timonen is 2.71
Coburn is 1.09
New Zealand's 4th best Philadelphia Flyers fan
Nice work.
It’s hard to differentiate often-paired defensemen’s GVT because they’re out on the ice so often together. I don’t think Carle is better than Kimmo, but he gets a big bump from being out there with Pronger all the time.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on May 27, 2010 7:02 PM CDT up reply actions
And the effect of Coburn dragging him down too (seriously, Coburn was a total chump most of the regular season).
New Zealand's 4th best Philadelphia Flyers fan
I know, I saw a fair number of PHI games this season. I thought he took a huge step back this season, when I had expected him to take a good sized step forward.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on May 27, 2010 7:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Krajicek and Parent will be too busy picking slivers out of their asses to matter much.
Well, I agree with this part.
www.mjt.org
So does nearly everyone on BSH. There is a collective heart attack whenever Parent is on the ice.
New Zealand's 4th best Philadelphia Flyers fan
A part of me has died inside a few times watching them play.
The people who think Kimmo Timonen is overrated are going to be in for quite the awakening once this series starts, in my opinion.
Proudly supporting a Flyers team with "no honor."
Well, I could be wrong and I have been many times, but I’ve seen Timonen fail miserably to contain Sidney Crosby in the 2 previous playoff seasons to form my opinion. His inability to do so is what brought Pronger to Philadelphia and was why they were trying to shop him around last summer after the Pronger deal on Draft day.
If he has an excellent series and becomes “the best Flyer game-in and game-out” then he’ll receive his due praise but if he plays like he did against the Penguins then my statement stands.
2010 PLAYOFFS: CONFERENCE FINALS MVP
Dave Bolland - the vermin that gnawed on Thornton's brain while adding 2 goals and 1 assist in the series.
I seem to recall that both postseasons he was injured. He is not a big guy so he can get worn down a bit, but his play against Ovechkin in the 2007-2008 playoffs is a big part of the reason the Flyers made it to the ECF. I don’t recall him ever trying to be shopped. The whole idea of getting Pronger was that the Flyers wanted two elite defenders to shut down teams that have good 1-2 lines like with the Pens.
Regardless, not many defenders actually contain Crosby
New Zealand's 4th best Philadelphia Flyers fan
Didn’t Hal Gill and P.K. Subban just contain Crosby and Ovechkin?
2010 PLAYOFFS: CONFERENCE FINALS MVP
Dave Bolland - the vermin that gnawed on Thornton's brain while adding 2 goals and 1 assist in the series.
Not really. Look at Behind the Net for the past few weeks on the Habs match-ups. They got completely outplayed
New Zealand's 4th best Philadelphia Flyers fan
Crosby 1 goal. For the whole series. They did they’re job much better than Timonen the past 2 seasons. Much, much better.
No player in the NHL sits there after a loss and says “well, I did have a great GVT tonight”, nor after a win “Man, my CORSI rating was fucking brutal tonight”. They don’t care and neither do their agents or GM’s. They all deal with wins, losses, goals, assists, points, GAA, SV% and TOI. The rest is thrown out the window.
2010 PLAYOFFS: CONFERENCE FINALS MVP
Dave Bolland - the vermin that gnawed on Thornton's brain while adding 2 goals and 1 assist in the series.
You’re treating everything as if it was a vacuum, which it obviously isn’t.
The work done at BtN wasn’t from a players perspective, it was done using the available information to try and explain why Pittsburgh lost, and it couldn’t come up with much.
If you think Timonen is over-rated, thats fine. But I hope you notice him in this series and are surprised.
New Zealand's 4th best Philadelphia Flyers fan
There aren’t very many defensemen who can handle Crosby one-on-one. Crosby wasn’t getting as much help from his wings this year, which meant Montreal could cheat on him. The Pittsburgh forecheck didn’t loosen the puck up as often for Crosby to get possession. And when he did get it he didn’t have friends in good places to dish to.
It’s so much a team game that most stats aren’t sufficient to support an argument.
by flyersfaninchicago on May 27, 2010 10:06 PM CDT up reply actions
I wouldn’t say Timonen is the best player game-in and game-out. The last Flyer defenseman who you could say that about was Mark Howe. But he is a real asset. He doesn’t have an obvious physical component to his game, but he often hits guys just hard enough to loosen up the puck. He’s been particularly good in the last two weeks, and a little edgier than normal. You appreciate him more at the rink when you see what he does away from the TV focus.
by flyersfaninchicago on May 27, 2010 10:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Question, after reading the comments on the Yahoo Sports articles
what exactly did Marian Hossa do to everyone to make them all hate him so much. Theres some serious hatred for that man out there
Hossa's Attorney says:
TAKE OFF THOSE CLOWN SHOES OR I WILL SHOOT THIS DOG!
it's in the rules, okay
you can’t be that good, play for my team and then just LEAVE us like that. Just because you were traded/UFA/too good for us to afford, that’s not a good enough reason!
Watch it with the jinxing!
Time for some thrillin' heroics!
I hated him because he was good
and didnt wear an indian head, but I still respected him as a player, I can see foam at the mouth hatred for a Bertuzzi or McSorley, but a clean player, who basically is an example of how a Forward should play seems obscenely stupid to me. And Pitt and Detroit should have known what he was for them, a hired gun
Hossa's Attorney says:
TAKE OFF THOSE CLOWN SHOES OR I WILL SHOOT THIS DOG!
by BigCSouthside on May 27, 2010 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions
What I find funny, too, is that if Pitt and then Detroit won their Cup chances with him on the team, there wouldn’t be half as much hatred. It’s the fact that he was brought in as such a “sure-thing” hired gun, and the teams didn’t get it done, that he’s nailed as a scapegoat … and so hated.
www.mjt.org
i think thats absolutely correct
i remember whenever the hawks played the wings, and the puck was on his stick in the offensive zone, i was terrified as hell – you couldn’t separate him from the puck
Doesn’t seem very moral to me. Might as well take Satan’s autograph while you’re at it. - N.C.
no fucking clue
as I’ve TMI’d before, it’s an privilege to watch Hoss play.
I got a block of wood to carry around, it soothes my superstitious soul. If the knocking doesn't help I can just beat myself over the head with it until I don't care anymore.
it's entirely possible this isn't sarcasm
Head-scratcher
but I hope the drumbeat keeps up. This is the best karma we got going into this series right now.
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
Yahoo? You're relying on Yahoo for hockey insight?
Oh BigC, has just this short time in the Buckeye State warped you that badly?
teaching respect for the Indian, one Red Wing fan at a time.
I read some of the articles just to see what they are saying
gotta venture outside the SCH cave every once and awhile
Hossa's Attorney says:
TAKE OFF THOSE CLOWN SHOES OR I WILL SHOOT THIS DOG!
by BigCSouthside on May 27, 2010 6:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly - Like I said earlier: He's become a force of nature.
There’ s this bizarre Hossa hate moj out there and people can’t really define why it’s even there. Being jealous of him/resenting him because he’ s not on your team, or left your team, or signed with your team for a few months, or signed with your team and got injured, or made a dirty hit on somebody blah blah blah. That’s to be expected, lame and not particularly weird. But the knee-jerk reaction he incites in people is fucking fascinating. It’s not about hockey. It’s more than that. I think he’s the Yoko Ono of hockey. People just love to hate his ass. It’s curious and fascinating. Somebody will nail the untold, true story in 25 years or so.
Dont Hate the Player: THe Untold Marian Hossa Story
Marian Hossa came to pittsburgh to win them a championship. They said it was a guarantee because having him was like playing Doom with God Mode on. When things didnt work out, Hossa went into the town and killed all the first born males of every pittsburgh family, burned down 4 city blocks with a single stare of hatred, and singlehandedly made an entire species of penguin extinct, some say, he may have even caused global warming. Once he was done there, he put up a website with a live feed of him clubbing baby seals for 24 hours
After laying waste to Pittsburgh, Hossa knew he had to move on to another conference. He chose to join the Evil Empire, Detroit. After a shoulder injury, and his team just flat out sucking, The Empire’s “fully operational battlestation” was destroyed. Hossa, now pissed that his team didnt help him out,even though he played with one arm and still had a decent playoffs, hatched a plan to singlehandedly destroy the economy of Detroit. All those government bail outs? Hossa’s fault, as he went in and dismantled each company’s structure and placed morons as CEOs, all while he sat in a dimly lit room laughing maniacally while throwing beer bottles at a caged Tomas Kopecky. It is also rumored that he went to every citizen of detroits house and did a “upper decker” in all their toilets, however it was not noticed until months later, as the smell of shit so closely resembles the natural scent of detroit
This is why the man they call Hossa is so hated, he is an business crushing, city burning, top tank pooping, seal clubbing bastard…not to mention a great hockey player
Hossa's Attorney says:
TAKE OFF THOSE CLOWN SHOES OR I WILL SHOOT THIS DOG!
by BigCSouthside on May 27, 2010 7:27 PM CDT up reply actions 10 recs
Sweet first draft!
Lemme know if you need a cheap fact-checker/copy editor. My rates are very competitive. Plus those pesky Stastnys lived in my building many moons back, so it’s not like we wouldn’t be able to get Slovakian “insider” perspective.
all while he sat in a dimly lit room laughing maniacally while throwing beer bottles at a caged Tomas Kopecky
Gold.
Tremendously tremendous!
Luongo's tears feed my soul.
by allyouyounghockeyplayersoutthere on May 27, 2010 10:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Wow
So…are you guys in trouble then? I mean, even if you win I wouldn’t put it past a guy like that to destroy you for fun.
(In other words, awesome work!)
nah, we're Hawks fans. There's nothing more he could do
that Dollar Bill didn’t already do to try and crush our souls. And we survived that.
by puppetmasterp on May 27, 2010 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions
he willl usurp Mayor Daley
make all the entire city council face a firing squad, make Slovakian the official language of Chicago, and beat the shit out of Jim Belushi and Oprah simultaneously on national TV.
Hossa's Attorney says:
TAKE OFF THOSE CLOWN SHOES OR I WILL SHOOT THIS DOG!
by BigCSouthside on May 27, 2010 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions
these are bad things?
well, maybe the having to learn Slovakian part.
by puppetmasterp on May 27, 2010 10:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Here's a good place to start:
Rock cez Londýn, Rock na Chicago! Wheaties – Raňajky šampiónov, ja som tvoj (drahé) fenka, suky!
Translation: Rock over London, Rock on Chicago! Wheaties – the Breakfast of Champions! I am your (expensive) bitch, bitches!
I’m going to be both proactive AND politically correct, and henceforth use the term “suky” instead of “bitches.” It’s much more professional. And yucky sounding. Sigh. Is it Saturday, yet?
Fuck za yes!
Rock Over London
Rock on Chicago
Diet Pepsi
Uh-Huh!
by Campbell32 on May 28, 2010 5:32 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I can't stop laughing about "upper decker"
That is the funniest thing I’ve seen here yet.
Chewing gum?
"Alex didn't cause Campbell's injury, the boards did."
what about the part where
he showed these men of will, what will is.
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
Heh, looks like Coach Q's been reading Days of Our Defense
“And sometimes, they probably get on each other, like a husband and wife would.”
Hawks’ Keith and Seabrook complement each other on and off the ice
by VerStig on May 27, 2010 8:39 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
that is a great article!
Thanks for sharing. They’re so cute together, I just love it.
by Katherine215 on May 27, 2010 8:44 PM CDT up reply actions
i LOVED this article
it made me want to get plush dolls of the two of them made. so adorable.
by puppetmasterp on May 27, 2010 9:26 PM CDT up reply actions
how bout if we think it is really cute
when Biscuit slams someone really hard into the boards.
I went to a fight the other night and a hockey game broke out.
- Rodney Dangerfield
It does make my heart go pitter pat
Watch it with the jinxing!
Time for some thrillin' heroics!
by shinkicker on May 28, 2010 9:58 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
it's the professor! And Rock Bottom!
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
by cliffkoroll on May 28, 2010 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions
That article brought me a whole lot of joy.
“They still basically do [share an apartment],” Quenneville said, chuckling. "Whether they live together or not, they live together.
Could they be any more adorable? No. No more adorable.
by spokeinthebandwagon on May 27, 2010 8:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I am overwhelmed
by how gleeful that made me.
This is why I have a hard time deciding whose jersey I’d want. Because they are ONE.
Watch it with the jinxing!
Time for some thrillin' heroics!
get one with "Marlboro"
as the name and 72 as the number, but thats probably a jersey foul
Hossa's Attorney says:
TAKE OFF THOSE CLOWN SHOES OR I WILL SHOOT THIS DOG!
by BigCSouthside on May 27, 2010 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions
what about Keithbrook?
not that I was pondering this on the bus today. I hit the blackhawks store for a hat, and impulse bought a Keith shirt. Seabs was only available in grey, or else I would’ve had a dilemma.
Watch it with the jinxing!
Time for some thrillin' heroics!
I saw a Chelibrook on Puck Daddy
Id say no go on the Keithbrook
Hossa's Attorney says:
TAKE OFF THOSE CLOWN SHOES OR I WILL SHOOT THIS DOG!
by BigCSouthside on May 27, 2010 9:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I dunno
might waive any foul rules for that shit. I think it sounds awesome.
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
And it would definitely mark you
as an SCH regular.
teaching respect for the Indian, one Red Wing fan at a time.
I might as well make my own
With puff paint!
Watch it with the jinxing!
Time for some thrillin' heroics!
by shinkicker on May 28, 2010 7:32 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
And Glitter!
/Note unceasing sarcastic laughter in background.
by burpchelischili on May 28, 2010 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions
oooh glitter
you definitely need the bling
I went to a fight the other night and a hockey game broke out.
- Rodney Dangerfield
Yeah, It's state law man,
If you’re gonna’ use puff paint, you HAVE to use Glitter!
/Note unceasing sarcastic laughter in background.
by burpchelischili on May 28, 2010 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm sensing another SCH party
Watch it with the jinxing!
Time for some thrillin' heroics!
by shinkicker on May 28, 2010 11:16 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
and a bedazzler!
See if you can guess what I am now.
by IndianHeadCrest on May 28, 2010 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions
that's some serious bling there
I went to a fight the other night and a hockey game broke out.
- Rodney Dangerfield
we cant leave you kids alone can we
Hossa's Attorney says:
TAKE OFF THOSE CLOWN SHOES OR I WILL SHOOT THIS DOG!
by BigCSouthside on May 28, 2010 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions
what no bling in Ohio?
I went to a fight the other night and a hockey game broke out.
- Rodney Dangerfield
no i just got a mental image
of a pic of keith and seabs all done up with hearts and puffy paint and rhinestones like I used to see on girls Leo DiCaprio notebooks when I was in gradeschool
and I died a little inside
Hossa's Attorney says:
TAKE OFF THOSE CLOWN SHOES OR I WILL SHOOT THIS DOG!
by BigCSouthside on May 28, 2010 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions
*discreetly hides scissors*
Ahem.
Watch it with the jinxing!
Time for some thrillin' heroics!
by shinkicker on May 28, 2010 2:37 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
it was on the pink jersey right?
I went to a fight the other night and a hockey game broke out.
- Rodney Dangerfield
Thank you so much for this link!
Mick and Keith. Oscar and Felix. Larry and Serge. A perfect couple, regardless.
The forecheck
I’ve heard a lot the last few days about the Flyers’ aggressive forecheck, and I’ll assume they’re very aware of how badly they can get carved up if they give the Hawks’ d-men time and space. One would assume that part of their game plan has to be putting pressure on early and often. I know I’ve already raised this in a post, but it just isn’t computing for me: how can that forecheck be so good, but get so completely hammered by the Caps, Sharks, and Canucks during the season? Are those teams that much better than the Hawks at handling pressure in their own end? Based on what I saw in our last two series, I don’t believe that for a minute. What am I missing here?
"Eighty-five percent of the fuckin' world's working. The other fifteen come out here." - Lee Elia
by TenMinuteMisconduct on May 28, 2010 12:08 AM CDT reply actions
What are you missing? Answer: nothing. Also answer: the Flyers, in spite of the post-season hype, are still an 88 point team in the regular season. This is not a coincidence. They’ll be complicated, yes, and maybe we play them like we played Nashville. But we beat Nashville. Maybe I’m an optimist, but honestly I haven’t seen anyone explain what Philly brings that teams we’ve already beaten don’t. I think the Hawks can take this thing. FFS, the Flyers were the seventh team in the East. The East. Think about that for a moment. I’ll let it sink in. Ommmm.
We are not the inferior team. We are not the ones who should be worrying about matchups, or quality, or anything. I really do feel that a lot of media outlets are giving the Flyers a hell of a lot of credit that I don’t think they’ve earned. 88 regular season points. That’s the Flyers’ grand total, and injuries are not an excuse. We do have an advantage here, and the primary advantage is that our players are both better skill-wise and better battle-tested. We can do this. Even if the press seems not to believe it. Fuck ’em.
by spokeinthebandwagon on May 28, 2010 12:20 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm being cautious
because it took the Flyers a while to get going, as well. Remember back when Scott Hartnell’s wife supposedly slept with Jeff Carter? When they were so bad they were in the running for Taylor Hall? They definitely eked out a playoff run and got into 7th seed, but imagine the run they DID have in the second half to get where they did. The first half of the season bit them in the ass but had they been more consistent (and we know from Flyers past that this team does not average out to be what their first half performance looked like) they would probably have ended up in the 4/5 seeds as they did last year. (Interestingly enough, though, this is what BtN has to say about strong 2nd season performances.)
I think, for me personally, I just don’t want to underestimate the Flyers. They’re healthier now, and they’re on a hot streak similar to ours as well. They didn’t get here by accident, and if they did, it would be on luck similar to what got us here.
But when it was suggested to him that Toews v. Kane seems likely to become a sidebar to every future international hockey tournament, he smiled and said: "I'd like us to win something together, too."
(Tweets @ChiBlackhawks and blogs at Blackhawks Down Low.)
by chiblackhawks on May 28, 2010 7:24 AM CDT up reply actions
This may be true, and I agree with most of it
But wasn’t their second half record not all that different from their first half? It’s not so much that, I think, as it is how well they’ve come together in the playoffs. Not any less scary, but, yeah.
I don't know
I think I’d rather play a pretty good team that’s on a hot streak than a really good team playing at the level they should. Hot streaks can go cold pretty quickly and without warning. Right?
"Eighty-five percent of the fuckin' world's working. The other fifteen come out here." - Lee Elia
by TenMinuteMisconduct on May 28, 2010 8:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Agreed
for example, I was never too spooked about Halak for this reason.
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
Talent does have a way
of finding it’s own level.
teaching respect for the Indian, one Red Wing fan at a time.
interesting/disturbing observation of the day
from hanley or rosie at wsox:
if the Hawks hadn’t coughed up that game to the Flyers, Philly wouldn’t have made the playoffs.
(I know, chain of causality, blah blah blah…)
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
yeah saw that
and then tried to put it out of my mind.
by puppetmasterp on May 28, 2010 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions
I believe this is what MouthGuard was getting at in one of his posts
at least if my loose, pidgeon-MouthGuard translation of it was remotely accurate.
by puppetmasterp on May 28, 2010 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Absotively, sučky.
And in honor of Father’s Day, which is just around the corner, the Flyers should gift Latoilette with a box of Havanas and a bowl of tangerine jello for turning around their season the way he has. When he took over the coachship, many guys on the team were injured and their self-confidence was clearly not where it needed to be. Their frustration imploded, stupid behaviors off the ice spilled into the locker room, and it was obvious that they were playing like guys who were pissed off at each other. It took a few weeks but they managed to get their shit together. I will always think the Flyers are dirtbags who need to wash their wieners (save for Briere and Pronger), but I do respect their ability to pull a whole other post-season out of their asses.
Believe what you want
Laviolette was hired on December 5th, the day of the third of four Caps games referred to. By that point, the Flyers were done with the Sharks AND Canucks. They were done with the Caps by mid-January, and most of the games referred to (though admittedly not all) were started by Ray Emery. Leighton didn’t play in any of them.
Would those games have turned out differently in April? May? I don’t know. But it’s a different system of play and a different goaltender from when almost all of that occurred.
Ok
Didn’t realize that most of those games where they got lit up occurred before the coaching change, so I’ll concede that in part at least. This series gets more and more interesting by the day, and they haven’t even dropped the puck yet.
"Eighty-five percent of the fuckin' world's working. The other fifteen come out here." - Lee Elia
by TenMinuteMisconduct on May 28, 2010 8:20 AM CDT up reply actions
Don't want a Preds rerun
NJ plays a patient game, and Philly walloped them. If the series unfolds this way, it’ll be another glass chew.
I give Nashville credit- they imposed their game on the Hawks. No one else has done that. Maybe Soup being out helped, but even after his return, it was a fucking slog in that series.
I don’t think Philly can impose this game on the Hawks, and I’m not even sure they are thinking this way.
Move the puck, take chances, press the action, be aggressive. Speed kills and the Hawks are a bit faster, better, and deeper. Third period.
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
I think I'm being cautious
because we under-estimated Nashville to a huge extent and Nashville then paid us back for the slight by dry-humping us up and down the ice in some truly embarrassing losses and pressuring us into the most difficult series of the playoffs.
So yeah, I’m not underestimating teams anymore. And I don’t want the Hawks to do that either because we’ve seen, over and over, how they play down to the perceived level of their opponent. I’d like for the Hawks to think and continue thinking that the Flyers are the monster under the bed that stole their lunch money and fucked their mom, because then they’ll play up to that.
I got a block of wood to carry around, it soothes my superstitious soul. If the knocking doesn't help I can just beat myself over the head with it until I don't care anymore.
it's entirely possible this isn't sarcasm
by boldmatter on May 28, 2010 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
remarkably eloquant
and i agree with boldmatter whole-heartedly here.
by puppetmasterp on May 28, 2010 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions
I can't hold it against any of the Flyers
for fucking Kaner’s mom. Let’s be honest here.
I got a block of wood to carry around, it soothes my superstitious soul. If the knocking doesn't help I can just beat myself over the head with it until I don't care anymore.
it's entirely possible this isn't sarcasm
I greatly prefer overstimating opposition
if yuo overdo your own performance and win big, I don’t see a down side to that
Confusion will be my epitaph.
Damn straight- if you're in the locker room
for people poundignnaway at keyboards, not so much. It’s more of an anti-jinx thing.
And the more I meditate on jinx theory, the more it makes religion look like science.
Gentlemen! I have invented...this thing!
by cliffkoroll on May 28, 2010 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
The Hockey and Baseball gods
are the only ones I think about on a regular basis.
Watch it with the jinxing!
Time for some thrillin' heroics!
by shinkicker on May 28, 2010 11:47 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
And considering how often fans
reffer to the team as “we”, it’s not surprising that we don’t want to buy into media hype anymore than we’d want the team to.
Watch it with the jinxing!
Time for some thrillin' heroics!
by shinkicker on May 28, 2010 11:48 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Why don't the Hawks just attack The Phillies at their strongest point?
Like Lombardi. This is what we are going to do. We are going to ram this thing down your throat and you can’t stop us.
They don’t need to be cute with these guys, just overwhelm them with pressure.
Chewing gum?
"Alex didn't cause Campbell's injury, the boards did."
I think they might have a hard time
Skating on the infield dirt
Watch it with the jinxing!
Time for some thrillin' heroics!
by shinkicker on May 28, 2010 11:21 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Wormtail, Mooney, Padfoot, and Prongs
Otherwise know as the Flyers main D corp. Everyone’s talking about how Pronger will be camped out infront of the net with Buff. Isn’t that a good thing for us? Two of the largest men in the game right in front of Leighton to screen him sounds like a plus to me. Not to mention it nullifies their best D-man against the two most dymanic Hawks who will have more room to manuver without Pronger hounding them with his orangatan reach.
Awesome HP reference
Though 3 of those guys were good guys – they should be Hawks!
by Katherine215 on May 28, 2010 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions
Buff and Sopel do just this already
I don’t even think they have blades
Chewing gum?
"Alex didn't cause Campbell's injury, the boards did."
Anyone
see this FanPost on Copper & Blue?
These two were hilarious:
Duncan Keith is like Kimmo Timonen but not as good
Niklas Hjalmarsson is like Ryan ParentI think even Philly fans would have trouble saying these with a straight face.
I think even Philly fans would have trouble saying these with a straight face
Actually, I thought the Philly fanpost WAS worse especially considering it was just made.
At least the C&B post was from the beginning of the year and he has admitted he would change things now…
They must have meant Bernie Parent (as in future HOFer)?
Seriously, how can anyone not appreciate Hammer?
Confusion will be my epitaph.
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