Are we overstating the concern about losing restricted free agents?

by GenPabloSecobar on Jun 18, 2010 4:06 PM CDT

In the past 10 years, by my unofficial count culled from Wikipedia and other sources, there have been five players who were offered offer sheets (or is it offered sheets?).

Ryan Kesler....offered by Philly....matched by Vancouver

Thomas Vanek...offered by Edmonton...matched by Buffalo

Dustin Penner...offered by Edmonton...accepted for the full compensation

David Backes...offered by Vanouver...matched by St. Louis

Steve Bernier...offered by St. Louis...matched by Vancouver

(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHL_players_who_have_signed_offer_sheets)

So, only once in five ten-plus years has a team lost an RFA. Keeping these odds in mind, be it because of GM collusion, GM's believing it's a bad deal...whatever...the historical odds point to offer sheets not being given. And though you obviously want to attack the champion and the Hawks are in a precarious situation with the cap and have little bargaining power, Stan Bowman isn't exactly reviled around the league as someone other GM's want to attack. At least I don't think so.

Now, signing RFA's was slightly more in vogue in the 90's than the last decade, but even still, that Wikipedia entry (which yes, can be taken with a grain of salt the further you go back), only has 24 signings, the bulk of which were in the early 90's. And how many CBA's ago was that?

So, even though we should be mildly concerned about other teams trying to poach our RFA's...and let's be honest, when we say that, we're basically talking about Hjalmarsson and Niemi, I think recent history shows that we don't need to be too worried. Particularly with Niemi, with the load of unrestricted free agent goalies who are more established (Cup win notwithstanding) who are out there.

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I'm not worried about losing our RFAs

we’ll either match the offers if they receive offer sheets, or we’ll get the draft picks—and you’ll be hard-pressed to find teams willing to lose early-rounders.

I’m pretty confident we’ll sign all the RFAs, or trade them as management sees fit. But we won’t lose them for nothing.

But when it was suggested to him that Toews v. Kane seems likely to become a sidebar to every future international hockey tournament, he smiled and said: "I'd like us to win something together, too." -- 2/28/10, so our Captain has said, and so it was done.

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by chiblackhawks on Jun 18, 2010 4:19 PM CDT reply actions

Life is changing a bit - and we have Cap trouble if we're called upon to match anything

Maybe not a massive risk, but I could see Hammer getting an offer

Lot’s of good goalies out there now, but Niemi could possibly get some interest too

Preparing my psyche for the coming Capocalypse
Confusion will be my epitaph.

by krome on Jun 18, 2010 5:11 PM CDT reply actions

perhaps even Ladd

Preparing my psyche for the coming Capocalypse
Confusion will be my epitaph.

by krome on Jun 18, 2010 5:11 PM CDT up reply actions

But that's my point

You’re suggesting the possibility that three of our players have a strong possibility get RFA offers,while it has only happened leaguewide five times in ten years.

Like you said, maybe life is changing a bit, but certainly Chicago isn’t the first team pressed hard against the cap.

by GenPabloSecobar on Jun 20, 2010 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions

I think with the Hawks Cap problems

things have changed. They probably need to dump about 12 million dollars from the current payroll to replace and fill out their roster for next season.

Maybe, just once, someone will call me 'Sir' without adding, 'You're making a scene."

by cdz3210 on Jun 20, 2010 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions

maybe it hasn't happened much before

but if there was ever a perfect time for this to take off, i’m guessing this is it.

by puppetmasterp on Jun 20, 2010 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions

Nothing under any prior CBA really matters

and previous years under this CBA have all had somewhat different economic climates (an ever increasing Cap, usually by greater jumps than we’ve seen) and the Hawks are in a somewhat different overextension status than I recall seeing previously.

So a lot is unique here

Preparing my psyche for the coming Capocalypse
Confusion will be my epitaph.

by krome on Jun 21, 2010 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions

tagging room....will it rear its ugly head again?

I’ll have to research this, but my question is……can we even match offer sheets if we don’t have the tagging room? Do tagging room rules apply as they did when we were trying to sign the Big 3? If tagging room applies during the off season, we’ll have to make trades before we can match any offers on RFAs.

Ditto for CNS

by Hack on Jun 19, 2010 9:35 AM CDT reply actions

tagging room

While building a team over the summer you can go 10% over the salary cap. So yes you can match offer sheets.

It still counts against the cap and you eventually have to make up for it, though

by DaleHalas on Jun 19, 2010 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions

we're sitting at about $63 million now - about $4.5 million over (not counting excess from last year counted against us)

we’re prety tight on tagging room even

Preparing my psyche for the coming Capocalypse
Confusion will be my epitaph.

by krome on Jun 19, 2010 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions

we're sitting at about $63 million now

There is speculation that the Hawks went into the bonus cushion this year. Some think the Hawks went deep into the bonus cushion. Truth is nobody knows where the Hawks are in relationship to the Cap since the NHL does NOT disclose that information.

What is known is that the Hawks have “tagging room” for the summer since they are required to have it per the CBA. Because of that, I still think the Hawks have the “room” to match offer sheets if they so choose.

by DaleHalas on Jun 20, 2010 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions

Another Cap question

Let’s say we actually do send Huet to Rockford. For some reason during the season we recall him. Now he has to go thru re-entry waivers where a team can pick him up for half his contract.

Does this mean that both teams split the prorated cap hit? Or is it only the team that claimed him?

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by Johnny Lava on Jun 19, 2010 1:14 PM CDT reply actions

Both teams will take Cap Hits

each for the value that they have to pay him. All I could find was half the Salary, I do not know if this is due, or for the year. but given how other things work, I would imagine it is year, since it would not be an IR/LTIR stint, and would likely have enough time to be entitled to full pay (even though he already is). So the only way I see Huet leaving Rockford is a flat out trade. He will clear waivers to the AHL, but would almost certainly be picked off on re-entry waivers, and the Hawks will not have the room to eat that.

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by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jun 19, 2010 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions

it would seem to be that it would be prorated going forward based upon how much season was left

Preparing my psyche for the coming Capocalypse
Confusion will be my epitaph.

by krome on Jun 19, 2010 6:25 PM CDT up reply actions

From the CB! Sect 50.9 (g(ii)). From being Merky to as clear as pea soup.

To the extent the Player does require Waivers to be Loaned to a
minor league affiliate, he cannot be Loaned or recalled without
first clearing regular Waivers, and then cannot be Recalled to the
NHL parent Club during the same League Year without also
clearing a new Re-Entry Waiver procedure, pursuant to which the
Player can be claimed by another NHL Club for fifty (50) percent
of the contract’s remaining amounts to be paid, with the balance to
be paid by and charged to the waiving NHL Club (both amounts to
be counted against each Club’s Upper Limit, Actual Club Salary
and Averaged Club Salary, and counted against the Players’
Share)

Now does this mean the Hawks would eat half of this AND next year? If the Hawks do decide to trade him, I am not even sure if he need to clear waivers first for that due to this 13.18 in the CBA

(a) A Player on Regular, Re-Entry or Unconditional Waivers cannot be
Traded or Loaned until after the expiration of the Waiver period.

I am convinced I need to become an NHL Lawyer first to get rich quick, but I’m sure it will lead to certain insanity!

ART.I§8-11; AM I-XXVII
James Madison is my Hero!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jun 19, 2010 9:57 PM CDT up reply actions

I think that all related to the League Year - so I don't think that carries over to later seasons

Preparing my psyche for the coming Capocalypse
Confusion will be my epitaph.

by krome on Jun 21, 2010 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions

fifty (50) percent of the contract’s remaining amounts to be paid

My understanding is that it is 50% of remaining contract even if over multiple years.

The cap hit is also split between the two teams for the length of the contract.

If a player is in the minors on a one way contract he is part of the team again in the preseason. He would have to go through waivers back down the second year to the minors. So Huet could be in the minors the first year, then rejoin the team over the next summer without have to go through re-entry waivers.

by DaleHalas on Jun 21, 2010 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions

But would Huet have to clear waivers

Before he could be traded mid-season? He would by all rights be going from the AHL to NHL, so do waivers apply? If so when? Before the trade, during the trade or after the trade? Or can a team simply trade for him, and immediately place him on their NHL roster without waivers?

And I can see why this is murky to allot of people. 2 answers on if he is claimed off of waivers. One saying the remainder of that NHL Season, the Other stating the remainder of the Contract life. Oh the joys of a league who does not disclose this crap!

ART.I§8-11; AM I-XXVII
James Madison is my Hero!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jun 21, 2010 8:01 PM CDT up reply actions

But would Huet have to clear waivers

If he was in the minors he would be traded to the other team as a minor league player. Then he would have to pass through re-entry waivers to come back into the NHL on the new team.

Boynton did this for the Hawks if you remember. He was traded to the Hawks and then had to clear re-entry waivers when he was brought up to the Hawks.

by DaleHalas on Jun 21, 2010 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions

Got it

So the only way and time to move him is during the offseason. No team is going to trade for him if he needs to clear waivers.

ART.I§8-11; AM I-XXVII
James Madison is my Hero!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jun 22, 2010 4:52 AM CDT up reply actions

the Hawks would apparently have little choice but to bury him there and leave him there

…if they get whacked for multiple years on a re-entry waiver claim

poor guy

Preparing my psyche for the coming Capocalypse
Confusion will be my epitaph.

by krome on Jun 22, 2010 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions

Yeah

I actually feel for Huet. He is in a crappy position that nobody including himself can fix.

ART.I§8-11; AM I-XXVII
James Madison is my Hero!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jun 22, 2010 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions

crappy position

its not all that bad. I still think he will end up playing in Europe with 11M coming to him from the Hawks. If that is crappy, I’ll trade him for it…

by DaleHalas on Jun 22, 2010 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions

If he "retires" from the NHL and goes to Europe, we don't have to pay him, right?

Preparing my psyche for the coming Capocalypse
Confusion will be my epitaph.

by krome on Jun 22, 2010 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions

If he "retires" from the NHL and goes to Europe

If he “retires” he can’t go to Europe and play hockey. Or pretty much anywhere in North America and I now think Russia. If he retires he is out for at least a year.

Also in the CBA under Circumventing the rules is a section on retiring players. A team can not negotiate with a player for compensation of any nature to be paid to the player after his retirement.

by DaleHalas on Jun 22, 2010 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions

This is players who have signed offer sheets…I think a player can reject them too, but I may be wrong. Seems like five is way too low.

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by red army line on Jun 19, 2010 3:24 PM CDT reply actions