Hammer or Niemi?

by Faustus1500 on Jul 11, 2010 3:47 AM CDT

Who would you rather have Niklas Hjalmarsson or Antti Niemi? It appears that will be the choice the Hawks need to make. Also, what is the reasoning behind your choice. Personally, I would go with Hammer. He is the perfect complement to Campbell in the second line. Unfortunately, without Niemi the Hawks might have had more trouble with the Sharks in the Conference Finals. While 2 out of the 3 Stanley Cup winning goalies ended up being Hall of Famers, is it possible that Niemi may flame out and you should go with the defenceman who could be great in the next few years? What do you guys think?

Poll

Hammer or Niemi?

Hammer

49 votes

Niemi

16 votes

65 votes | Poll has closed

Tweet Comment 36 comments | 0 recs |

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Comments

2 of 3 SC winning goalies ended up in the HOF, from when/where?

by OMFS88 on Jul 11, 2010 1:03 PM CDT via mobile reply actions

Goalies who wone Cups as rookies

Ken Dryden, in 1971, won the Cup for the Montreal.
Patrick Roy, in 1986, won the Cup for Montreal
Cam Ward, in 2006, won the Cup for Carolina

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/37611521/ns/sports-player_news/

by Faustus1500 on Jul 11, 2010 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions

Doubt

Cam Ward ends up a HOFer

II Can Finally Die Happy Now!

by Tuke on Jul 11, 2010 11:09 PM CDT up reply actions

hammer seems like the no brainer

here…if you deal him you almost render soupy and his 7mm contract useless…niemi is more easily replaced and prolly for cheaper on the market…and this team is built to win with average goaltending

not to mention if you deal hammer that makes my hjalmarsson sweater i got last christmas useless

by sec. 317 on Jul 11, 2010 5:06 PM CDT reply actions

Who would we get that is cheaper than $3MM a year?

That is not statistically worse than Niemi.

More importantly, why would we trade away a goalie that had seven shutouts in only one half of a season and was a big part of winning the Cup at 26? Seems to me if you can lock Niemi up for four years at $3MM per you have a better deal than with any rent-an-injury on the market now.

Any goalie not worse than Niemi is already not signing for low money. The available UFAs are Toskala (no thanks), Turco (wants more than $2MM to play), Emery (Philly passing on him is a sign that he is not coming back strong anytime soon), Theodore (who likely is looking for big money as well), and two rookies , Danis and Valiquette.

So I guess the question becomes if you have to pay $3MM a year for a number one goalie, why not Niemi? And if you spend less than that, who would that be and would they not be worse? No matter how good our defense may be, I don’t think Vesa Toskala keeps you in games.

by Return of the Roar on Jul 12, 2010 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions

If we match Hammer,

I don’t think we can afford $3m a year and still dress 20 guys. I don’t think it’s a matter of not wanting Niemi, it’s a matter of valuing Hammer slightly more and not having the money left over for Niemi’s demands.

by Katherine215 on Jul 12, 2010 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions

Unless we get Turco for cheap

I feel like the move we have to make here is to just settle for whoever we can get and hope Crawford can emerge, Niemi-style, this year.

by VerStig on Jul 12, 2010 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions

Crawford has to be thrilled

about capocalypse. He’s practically guaranteed a spot on the team.

by Katherine215 on Jul 12, 2010 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions

Crawford

And it is important to remember that when Niemi and Crawford had the exact same d-core in front of them the two fought to a draw.

I liked Niemi a little better for the long term but he DID NOT beat out Crawford.

by DaleHalas on Jul 12, 2010 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions

I think Hammer is a no brainer

what the Hawks would receive in compensation is a 1st and 3rd round pick from San Jose. I am not sure how strong the draft is. I have heard on the radio that it could be a weak one.

by Faustus1500 on Jul 11, 2010 7:35 PM CDT reply actions

but....

I have known to be wrong.

by Faustus1500 on Jul 11, 2010 7:38 PM CDT reply actions

A false premise

This is not an either or situation. Once you take Huet’s $5.6MM out of the picture (which will come off either via trade or I-Pass to Rockford), the Hawks have $11MM in cap space. Plenty of room to sign Hammer at $3.5MM and Niemi at no more than $3MM (he will NOT get much more than that via arbitration due to his limited tenure in the NHL), and fill in the remaining spots with guys from Rockford (Bickell, Dowell, Beach, Hendry) all for $1MM or less, with about $2.2MM to spare, and another $4MM or so off for next year – plenty of room to extend Seabrook. And, we can be 10% over – $5.9MM until day one of the season, giving us time to ship Huet or use the minors as a last minute last resort option.

There are not decent enough “average goalies” out there who will sign for less than $3MM a year anyway. Turco turned down a two year $2MM per deal from Philly, Theodore is not going to work for less than $4MM, and Nabby already went to the KHL to get the $6MM he wanted.

I also tend to think that a true “average goalie” in net for us last year would have meant no cup. We don’t need a Patrick Roy, but we don’t want a Marty Biron type either. We have Niemi in the right place at the right time with the NHL setting his value and not the open market. A chance to ride his tide for the next three or four years while he works up to the premier goalie he will be.

by Return of the Roar on Jul 11, 2010 11:46 PM CDT reply actions

Well not really

Wouldn’t we need cap room for next year? Seabrook’s and Brower’s contracts end after this up coming season.

by Faustus1500 on Jul 12, 2010 8:50 AM CDT up reply actions

We would have the cap room next year

We get the $4MM or so back from the award bonuses for last year, and we would have another $2.2MM left from this year.

Seabs makes $3.5MM cap hit now. He won’t get more than $5MM – that’s only $1.5MM more. I don’t think Brouwer will get much more than… $3MM do you? Still under the cap. Unless we have any Vezina, Hart, etc candidates again next year.

by Return of the Roar on Jul 12, 2010 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions

I agree

That is what is Brouwer is worth. I also agree that there are very few goaltending slots for Niemi. What concerns me is that if Brouwer ends up being a 30 goal scorer(it is entirely possible.) If NJ doesn’t nab Kovalchuk that means the Devils can afford to keep Parise, this means if Brouwer shows the ability to be better goal scorer it may mean his service may carry a premium.

by Faustus1500 on Jul 12, 2010 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions

So even at $3MM a year for Brouwer

The Hawks still have the cap room in 2011-12 to pay Seabs, Brouwer, Hammer and Niemi. Hence my point that there is no either or situation here.

by Return of the Roar on Jul 12, 2010 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions

hope

I hope you are right.

by Faustus1500 on Jul 12, 2010 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions

We can't pay everyone. Seabs will get what? 5 MM per? Brouwer like 2.5?

----2010 MOTHERFUCKIN' STANLEY CUP CHAMPS, CHICAGO BLACKHAWKS!----

Derrick Rose will lead us back to the promise land.

Tommy T is a defensive wiz!

#5 Brent Sopel Fan Club member.

Laddddddddyyyyyyyyyyyy

by DRose#1 on Jul 12, 2010 8:41 PM CDT up reply actions

$11 mil in cap space?

how do you get 11 mil. I get 9.2 mil in cap space.

Ditto for CNS

by Hack on Jul 12, 2010 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions

You are right.

http://www.nhlnumbers.com/overview.php?team=CHI&season=1011

It looks like they have 9.1 mill of cap space.

by Faustus1500 on Jul 12, 2010 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions

Using your source - nhlnumbers.com

and including the cap hit for Hammer of 3.5 (which they have), you take the cap space available listed on their site of $5,601,000, then add Huet’s $5,625,000, and you get $11,226,000.

Subtract $3MM for Niemi, you have $8,226,000 left. Scott is $550K, Hendry will be like $750K – there is your third line D unless Boynton takes a homer discount to keep playing. Leaves you with $6,926,000 to sign three forwards.

Stalberg’s hit is $750K, Beach is at $1,125,000, Bickell and Dowell – one of them is at $525K, and the other needs to be resigned. Let’s be generous and say the unsigned one of the two gets $750K. That leaves you with $3,776,000 adding four more forwards.

What I do not see on this site is the bonus hit for Toews getting the $1.3MM for the Smythe trophy. Take that away and you have $2,476,000 left. Enough to extend Seabs.

I am of course assuming that Stanbo gives Huet the I-Pass, or finds a buyer. And we can be 10% over until game one.

Am I missing something??

by Return of the Roar on Jul 12, 2010 10:44 PM CDT up reply actions

Are you counting the $4+ million

in bonus hits? There’s not just Toews’ hit. Capgeek says we have a $4.1 million carry over penalty.

by Katherine215 on Jul 12, 2010 11:11 PM CDT up reply actions

NHL Numbers is great site....

…but capgeek is better for figuring cap calculations. NHL Numbers has the bonuses off to the side and those have to be included in the cap hit in some cases (Beach for example). And I like your eye towards the future with figuring in Seabs extension, but that is something to worry about next offseason, but once the bonus overages are off the books there is plenty of room to address Seabs.

The less a man makes declarative statements, the less apt he is to look foolish in retrospect.

by Overserved on Jul 13, 2010 12:34 AM CDT up reply actions

Carry over bonus penalty

I am guessing that is the combined Toews and Kane bonuses for this past season?

by Faustus1500 on Jul 13, 2010 8:31 AM CDT up reply actions

Yep.

Is it just them or did anyone else have a bonus? Madden?

by Katherine215 on Jul 13, 2010 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions

Ok, so it can still be done

If the $4.1 MM in bonuses counts against this year, follow my math.

$3,776,000 plus Beach at $1,125,000 back in Rockford, you have resigned Hammer at $3.5MM, Niemi at ~$3MM, Stalberg, Bickell and Dowell to fill the three empty forward spots at a total of $2.2MM, and Scott and Hendry as the third line D for $1,275,000, and you have $4,901,000 left over to cover the bonuses – leaving about $800K in cap space as a margin for Niemi.

Looks like it still works from where I stand. And when the $4.1MM comes back next year to us, we keep Seabs.

by Return of the Roar on Jul 13, 2010 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions

Not doubting you but how come no one else is saying this?

----2010 MOTHERFUCKIN' STANLEY CUP CHAMPS, CHICAGO BLACKHAWKS!----

Derrick Rose will lead us back to the promise land.

Tommy T is a defensive wiz!

#5 Brent Sopel Fan Club member.

Laddddddddyyyyyyyyyyyy

by DRose#1 on Jul 12, 2010 8:42 PM CDT up reply actions

We won more games last year because our defense was sick, than because our goaltending was sick

its easy, Hammer

by bonzo48280 on Jul 12, 2010 2:48 AM CDT reply actions

HAMMER!!

and why is there no poll here?

"Erin go Braugh". What the fuck does that mean?
It's Irish for "you're fucked".

by whiskeyboy on Jul 12, 2010 8:51 AM CDT reply actions

There you go

I went ahead and posted a poll. I wanted have someone give their reasoning along with their vote.

by Faustus1500 on Jul 12, 2010 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions

My screen name says it all

and Friday cannot come soon enough. I love Niemi, too and I dearly hope we can keep them both. God knows this off-season has been brutal to my heart but if I have to make a choice, it’s Hjammer all the way.

by Hjammered on Jul 12, 2010 11:30 AM CDT reply actions

Hammer has my vote

I love Niemi and he played solid. He has to learn more and could be a great goalie; however I just dont see it. I see him as an average goalie who will still give up the big rebounds that can lead to scoring chances. Look at how many times we cleared the zone b/c he wasn’t able to control them. I loved his feet and see a lot of potential, but I could with what i see right now. If he does good for a full-season; awesome but we dont have that option. We have seen Hammer and I love what he brings. You take away him and then you lose what got you this far in the first place being D. The top 4 d-man and an average/above average goalie and we have a stanley cup. We do need a goalie to keep us in it sometimes, but take out hammer and now it’s down to 3 good d-men. We dont have enough in the system “ready to make the leap” I think at this time. Have you seen how much IMO decent defenseman have gone for in FA. Goalies are much more prone to have stand out rookies years than D from what I have see. Look at Mason.(Tyler Myers is an exception.)
I think Hammer has proved himself and I dont think going from 4 good D-men down to 3 and then who knows it could be 2.5 depending on how Campbell does with out him.
This is all my speculation; I just dont see how you can take a chance on that. Hammer in my team is a must.

2009-2010 Stanley Cup Champions
Chicago Blackhawks

by Jrs23 on Jul 12, 2010 1:57 PM CDT reply actions

Hawks shouldn't pay for St. Louis overspend

Just because Halak made out from a successful playoff performance, it’s not worth going down the same road again. Isn’t over-paying for a goalie what helped make this team deal with a tough cap situation?

by Bhawk1988 on Jul 12, 2010 2:13 PM CDT reply actions

Halak does not equal Niemi

Halak played 87 NHL games over three NHL seasons. And was clearly superior to Niemi this season – especially in the playoffs for a much weaker team.

I would submit the $3.5MM per year is not overspending for a goalie like Halak – e.g. – see Huet, Turco, Giguere, etc.

Mason from St. Louis, a top ten sv pct and GAA over the last two years got a two year deal for $1.85MM per year.

Niittymaki got $2MM a year for two years to be the number one for San Jose. 162 NHL games over five seasons, 2.98 GAA and .903 sv pct.

Teams are not committing big money to goalies league wide. Niemi will be happy to sign for whatever the arbitrators offer – there are also few starting goalie jobs out there.

by Return of the Roar on Jul 12, 2010 10:58 PM CDT up reply actions

While I agree with you in part...

…Antti Niemi’s name can be found on Lord Stanley’s Cup, and Halak’s cannot. That does by no means diminish Halak’s value, but rather illustrates Niemi’s value in comparison to a similar RFA goalie. For the record, I do not think St. Louis overpaid for Halak. 3 – 4 Million over 4 years for a starting goalie is fairly reasonable in my opinion. There are several goalies making quite a bit more than that and the last cup that had their name on it was a sippy cup. Plus, Halak’s performance in the Olympics should not be overlooked. The real question here is what does the arbitrator think is fair for only one year arbitration deal? I would venture to guess between 2 – 3 Mill per is about right.

The less a man makes declarative statements, the less apt he is to look foolish in retrospect.

by Overserved on Jul 13, 2010 12:50 AM CDT up reply actions