Preparing The Ground
by SamFels on Jul 28, 2010 11:16 AM CDT
Email
PrintMcClure and I were remarking last night how impressed we've been at the level-headedness of our readers when it came to Antti Niemi, his restricted free agency, and his upcoming arbitration hearing. Most of you were cautious not to break the bank on him, and comfortable with the alternatives.
And yet, I feel the need to prepare everyone for the outcome that Antti-goal is not going to be here next year. Al Cimiglia wrote a great piece about it yesterday. What he's hearing doesn't lend anyone confidence, and really there's no way it should. In reality, the Hawks cannot bring back Niemi for a number greater than 1.5 million, if they want to have any flexibility at all, even the minimal that would provide. There's no way agent Bill Zito is going to accept that. Secondly, the Hawks could go into the hearing with that as their offer. But with the fact that the arbitrator merely picks one side's number or the other (I think that's how it works, correct me if I'm wrong), if the Hawks came in with too low of a number that at arbitrator could justify choosing, he'll go to Niemi's which the Hawks brass would run screaming from.
Add to this that if Cimiglia is right, and Marty Turco is willing to come here for that 1.5 number (or lower), and the smart-hockey move here is to go the latter route. In my mind, Turco or Niemi in net are the same thing. Both are goalies that won't win you a lot of games by themselves but will thrive behind a well above average defense, facing minimal shots per night (in fact Turco was at his best in just this scenario). Also, the thought of Turco grabbing the puck behind the net and starting the breakout himself could lead to some serious firewagon stuff. Say Turco does sign here for between 1 and 1.5, and Hendry comes back at what we assume was his price last year. You'd have enough room to keep Beach up with the big club if he earns it (and I think he will). You'd still have enough cap room to sign another veteran d-man to protect Turco (in order to protect Marty we must turn Jay Mc-KEE!). You could carry another forward. I'll give you two stat lines from last year, and you tell me which one was accrued behind the best defense in the league, and which one was behind an average at very best and that's giving them the best of it Dallas blue line:
.913 SV% 2.72 GAA 30 shots per game.
.912 SV% 2.25 GAA 24 Shots per game.
Pretty easy to figure out, right? Well, what if Niemi had seen 30 shots per game in his 39 appearances? His GAA would have been 2.65 with the same SV%.
Barring what I would categorize as a contract negotiation miracle (without the feats of strength and airing of grievances), it just makes more hockey sense to sign Turco for cheap. This is just my theory, but I bet if Stan Bowman wasn't worried about the PR backlash, this probably would have been done already. But he needs the hearing to go badly, or the negotiations to break down so he can say to the media and fans, "What can I do?".
But hey, I'm just a bald guy with some thoughts...
184 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Sounds pretty rational - oh wait...
…I think I hear husler777’s footsteps ;)
Lord Stanley's new address: Sweet Home Chicago!
by ChicagoNativeSon on Jul 28, 2010 11:41 AM CDT reply actions
I must admit, the scenario you presented is very tempting
but this article on avoiding arbitration is an interesting read, too, using Stralman & the BJs as an example. He signed for 1 year/$1.95mil despite most of the D-men directly around him in point-scoring making $2.75 million or more this coming season. Key quote:
Stralman stood a strong chance of making more than $1.95 million had he gone through with the arbitration. But by signing the deal in advance, he avoided the risk that the Blue Jackets would exercise their right to “walk away” from Brogan’s ruling if they deemed it too high.
In that scenario, Stralman would have been an unrestricted free agent, joining a market that is currently saturated with players. The chances of him making more than $1.95 million as a free agent in late July early August appear slim.
Given the conditions for goalies out there this year (Halak notwithstanding), this could realistically happen with Niemi. That said, I wouldn’t hold my breath & could certainly live with your Turco proposition.
I read that as well
And it very well could happen; I sure hope it would. I mean I could live with Turco. The only thing right now Turco has over Niemi IMO is his stick handling skills.
I wonder if this is a possibility, but than again, Stralman isn’t a CUP winning player.
2009-2010 Stanley Cup Champions
Chicago Blackhawks
Not to bash Niemi
but we still don’t know if he can handle a starter’s workload; he looked a bit iffy by the time the Philly series rolled around, whereas Turco has played 60 or more games in 4 of the 5 seasons since the lockout. Again, I like Niemi & want him to stay for the right price, but this sort of scenario is basically unprecedented and we don’t want to sign him only to find out he can’t play more than half a season before getting tired.
Not to mention, Turco has the look on his face at the end of this video going for him.
HA!
That’s great stuff (the video)
"What the hell, let's review it." - Dale Tallon
"They are!" - Pat Foley
"What a farce." - Dale Tallon
He looked a bit iffy by the time the Philly series rolled around...
And look at all the money Halak is making now!
"What doesn't kill us makes us stronger."
I'd like to keep Niemi
But I am intrigued by the possibility of Turco. I love his puck-handling skills and what it could do for our breakout and I wonder if facing 15-20 shots a game might be perfect for him rather than the shot load he has been facing previously in his career.
Just see the Hitchcock years
and you’ll see how Turco handled the lighter workload.
FifthFeather.com
by El Duque's Raft on Jul 28, 2010 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Just curious,
What’s the age of of the oldest goalie to win a Stanley Cup in the last 25 years?
"....we have to find a way to win. And good teams do that."
Tomas Kopecky May 29, 2010
Will Turco come that cheap?
If he really turned down $2 million from the other team in the SCF is he willing to take $1.5 million or less from the Hawks?
If the answer is yes it’s kind of a no-brainer, but I don’t get the sense that it is.
Alright, Marty...
$1.5 million in front of Keith/Seabrook/Campbell/Hammer and face maaaaaybe around 15-25 shots a game? Actually have an offense that would know what the hell to do with your breakout passes….Or, unemployment…because I don’t see many teams throwing anything north of $2 million your way.
Your move, holy man.
"What the hell, let's review it." - Dale Tallon
"They are!" - Pat Foley
"What a farce." - Dale Tallon
not to mention he probably passed thinking he'd get a better deal someone else
and as of right now, I don’t see too many other teams jumping to pick him up
I can't wait to dive into a pool and end up in a jacuzzi
by desertindian on Jul 28, 2010 7:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Yet,
there must be something we do not know. We do not think there are spots and offers for him and Niemi but they must feel otherwise.
Supposedly
he would be willing to take a pay cut in order to play with the Hawks. He feels that if he is able to get a year behind a superior D, it may show that he is still able to play, which in turn could bring other suitors out for his services the following year.
II Can Finally Die Happy Now!
I've got no ill will for Niemi...
…but I’d love to see Turco in a Hawks sweater. I’ve always enjoyed watching him play, and the previously mentioned firewagon scenario would be so much fun.
I think
There’s a decent chance Turco will take 1.5$m/yr
Yeah, he turned down 2m a year to play in philly, but that was like… a day after the free agent deadline – 5 weeks ago. There’s still a long way to go until the season, but if we are talking to turco then he knows we aren’t talking to niemi (or at least don’t think the talks are going anywhere), which means there is yet another goalie with very similar last-season stats who also had the SC last season on the market. I think at that point, 1.5m looks not-so-bad.
Discount goalie...
…I think the Hawks could probably do a better job of pinching pennies with Jose Theodore than Turco.
The fact that Theodore played pretty well last season under unbelievably hard circumstances (which was why he got the Masterton), means if he actually had an honest-to-God blueline corps in front of him, he’d flourish.
HOCKEENIGHT.COM...home of FRIDAY NIGHT FIGHTS and the HOCKEENIGHT PUCKCAST!!!
Jose is a poor man's Luongo
Not in how well he can play, but more the gigantic rebounds he gives up. He can make the first save as well as anyone, but the argument is that our D-men would be able to clear the rebound when Washington’s couldn’t.
by warrenjm2006 on Jul 28, 2010 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions
gigantic rebounds?
Niemi has his fair share too.
But when it was suggested to him that Toews v. Kane seems likely to become a sidebar to every future international hockey tournament, he smiled and said: "I'd like us to win something together, too." -- 2/28/10, so our Captain has said, and so it was done.
(Tweets @ChiBlackhawks and blogs at Blackhawks Down Low.)
by chiblackhawks on Jul 29, 2010 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions
Somebody who knows more, please clarify the CBA
but my understanding, from some here and my own cursory review of the arbitration rules of the CBA, is the arbitrator is not limited to picking the Hawks number OR Niemi’s number. Only the length of the contract the arbitrator can award is fixed (either one year or two). The salary is entirely up to the arbitrator’s discretion depending on the evidence presented by the two sides during the 90-minute arbitration.
So what is it? Must the arbitrator pick either the Hawks salary number OR Niemi’s?
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." -- Alvin Dark
That
Is my understanding. The arbitrator can decide the dollar amount.
by oregon_hawk on Jul 28, 2010 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I think that is correct as well
I don’t think the NHL’s arbitration process is like baseball’s. Baseball’s CBA specifically states that they will chose one or the other (section F.5 here pg 28 and 29 of the pdf if you are curious), but I don’t see anything in the NHL’s CBA that specifically states that (only the years, as you mentioned). I do believe in general arbitrators do tend to pick one side or the other, but I’m not sure they are limited to that in the NHL.
The arbitrator
can decide a $ dollar amount using certain criteria as evidence such as:
NHL & team experience
Other RFA goalie signings (of comparable experience)
Leadership skills & public appeal (honestly, I’m not making this one up).
Players contribution to teams success
Injuries / Illnesses
As far as my understanding, those are the only criteria a decision can be based upon, and as anyone can see, most of the criteria work in the Hawks favor.
II Can Finally Die Happy Now!
Interesting
Cimiglia’s piece was outstanding- thanks.
It still seems like the Hawks could go $2 million or a bit more with a 22 (gulp- 21?) man roster.
If so, that’s my first choice.
If not, Turco or Theodroe at $1.5 million or a bit more- well, that seems pretty damn palatble too, if realistic.
I like the way this is trending- seems like Nemo and Zito are losing leverage if these veterans are obtainable for under $2 million.
June 30, 2010. We will rue this day.
Does anyone else find it ironic
that barely 5 months ago, no one wanted Turco here, and now we’d be glad to have him?
Obviously, the situation in February (during The Great Goalie Debate) is completely different than the situation now, but I shake my head whenever one of us (myself included) states that they’d be just fine with Turco now.
I was actually fine with him then
But I was still holding out hope on Huet. Please don’t bring the flashbacks of the “Great Goalie Debate”
Though I do wonder what will it be this year….
2009-2010 Stanley Cup Champions
Chicago Blackhawks
well, I meant people in general
Not you specifically, Jrs23! :)
I was wondering what we would worry about next season, too. Probably still goalies, lol.
by Katherine215 on Jul 28, 2010 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions
You don't see a Crawford vs Toivonnen fight in our future?
How would you like a job where, every time you make a mistake, a big red light goes on and 18,000 people boo?
I don't remember that
but I was still semi-lurking back then & trying to not get involved in the Debate. I’m guessing part of the problem was that Turco’s contract ended, so we’d’ve been getting a rental and partly also his $5.7mil Cap hit, whereas now the figure is $1.5mil.
Ah, cheers
Wow, looking back, we were pretty tightly strung back then, huh? At least now we’re more relaxed because we’re still kind of enjoying our post-Cup/coital cigarette.
Haha, just noticed this
Jaro Halak isn’t going anywhere, as Carey Price is the one they’re going to ship off.
And this was before the Washington series!
that deal still mystifies me
but Montreal must know something I don’t about Price. Or Halak.
by Katherine215 on Jul 28, 2010 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions
That's the only reasonable explanation
but those Canadiens are kind of crazy, so reason may not enter into it.
The Montrealer explains...
Fairly simple – Carey Price is seen as a “thoroughbred” with higher “pedigree” than Halak (words Bob Gainey has used). While Gainey is no longer GM (he now has an advisory role) , Price is golden calf and you know that his fingerprints are all over it. They didn’t even call Halak’s agent after the playoffs, demonstrating that this decision was quite premeditated.
Eh, it still confuses me
but maybe it’s because I put more stock in character/skill than “pedigree.”
by Katherine215 on Jul 28, 2010 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions
So do all the armchair GMs in Montreal. It made front page news on most of the newspapers and it was THE discussion in offices for about 2 weeks. People are still upset. Hell, I bought a Halak shirt a few weeks prior to the trade.
The only “argument” that could be made was that the Habs had to re-sign Plekanec (a UFA), and they couldn’t afford to re-sign both Halak and Price who were both RFA. Still, they didn’t even call Halak to get a price out of him. What a shame.
I now wish
my dad was a pornstar
nothin but smiles
my Captain is better than your Captain
by Johnny Lava on Jul 28, 2010 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
RRrrrec'd!!!
"It's the Chicago Blackhawks, man." - Jeremy Roenick
by The Fearless Freep on Jul 28, 2010 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions
You sir,
are one sick puppy. Funny, yes, but sick. I literally LOL’ed here.
39 years of pain vaporized by one OT goal.
palomino
Before this gets really ugly.
How would you like a job where, every time you make a mistake, a big red light goes on and 18,000 people boo?
how bout a little ugly then?
no, you’re right.
There’s no way we’d keep it light
nothin but smiles
my Captain is better than your Captain
Draft position
It’s all about the fact that Price was a 1st round pick for the Habs, whereas they fell ass-backwards into luck with Halak and him being a later pick.
I enjoy the capitalization of the D on Debate
It’s like the Great Depression in its infamy
"I have only space enough to add: against the assault of desperate pandas nothing can stand."
-ChicoMaki (channeling Mark Twain)
by HungryHungryPanda on Jul 28, 2010 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions
I can't wrap my mind around this
“This is atypical,” Niemi’s agent, Bill Zito, said Tuesday. “It’s just about the cap; it’s cap management. No one ever said, ‘Antti doesn’t deserve this or he’s not good enough’ or anything like that.”
So what is the effing problem Bill? Do you not see or understand the position the Hawks are in? There is only so much money for the Hawks! And what team is going to have the cap-room or budget to pay your boy what you want?
Take a nice cap friendly 1 year deal (load it with incentives if you want) and go for the nice fat contract next season. Hawks may have room for a better deal then, Niemi may prove he’s worth $3-$4M after another good season.
I feel bad for Antti. It seems like Zito is driving him off a cliff.
nothin but smiles
my Captain is better than your Captain
plus
if Niemi does stay and the Hawks have to move another piece (Sharp or Bolland, cause what does Kops and Brou really save you) aren’t we all going to blame him for everything if the team craps itself next season?
nothin but smiles
my Captain is better than your Captain
by Johnny Lava on Jul 28, 2010 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Niemi can say no
to Zito. yes, his agent should be giving him (good) advice. but at some point, Niemi needs to open his eyes and think for himself. He can look around the league at who has goalies signed and who doesn’t, and who can realistically afford to pay him what he wants and figure out for himself whether Zito’s plan is a good idea or not. Zito’s a shark, but blaming this only on him means Niemi is dumb as a rock.
by Katherine215 on Jul 28, 2010 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions
or Niemi is greedy
At this point he is either, as you said, dumb as a rock for not understanding the cap situation.
or
A “Me 1st” douche that is fine with hurting the overall quality of the team to get paid.
Fuck it. I’m done with him, don’t want him or need him.
nothin but smiles
my Captain is better than your Captain
by Johnny Lava on Jul 28, 2010 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions
What’s wrong with a player fighting for what he feels he’s worth? We can’t possibly know what’s going on in the negotiations. All we get is one-sentence snippets from press releases. The guy has seemed like a pretty stand-up guy since he’s been here, so I’m willing to cut him a break. What does the Hawks’ cap situation have to do with his value?
www.mjt.org
I agree.
Can’t blame him for trying to get what he can, but it would be refreshing for him to be willing to take less for a longer term deal in order to stay with a great team and a fan base that appreciates him. (with the exception of Johnny Lava)
39 years of pain vaporized by one OT goal.
I don't know
if the ‘Hawks are offering such a deal. Remember he’s really only played one season; he turns out to be a dud/one-season wonder, we’ve got ourselves another goalie problem. I think the ’Hawks learned from Huet are only going for one or two years.
Chico: I have no problem with a player fighting for what they think they’re worth. It’s just that in this situation Niemi seems be be saying that he thinks he’s worth more to the team than Sharp. At least he should know by this point that there is only so much money the Hawks can give him due to the cap.
Badger: I may have been a bit rash. It’s the frustration talking.
Germware: I think that’s exactly the problem. Niemi wants some longish term security (who can blame him?) but there is no 4-5 year contract that can pay him what he wants and keep the caphit small enough to fit in this seasons budget
nothin but smiles
my Captain is better than your Captain
I would like to offer that Niemi has only played in about a half of one season.
Aside from that, I appreciate what he brought to the team last year. His demeanor has to be viewed as an important factor in last season’s cup run. The Hawks were still a relatively young team (I stated when they lost the 09 WCF, that they had now learned to lose, and could begin to win) and if Niemi had been an “average” young goaltender, he might have melted down, and caused the team to falter a bit. Instead, his level-headed, unflappable attitude kept them on an even keel. Turco is an upgrade, at a cheaper price than it would have cost to retain Niemi.
I wish him success in getting a 2.75 million dollar contract. Seriously, good luck. Nobody that needs a goalie with half a regular season, and an average to above average playoff run has that kind of money to tie up in that kind of player.
Thanks for your time, and for the last time: Niemi sanoo ei!
Everyone dies. It is the only true and lasting justice in life.
I sympathize with this view
I just don’t think this is how the world works. You don’t hire an expert to ignore him or her.
June 30, 2010. We will rue this day.
Obviously, he's not ignoring him, though.
I don’t think you hire an expert to hand over the reigns of your life and sit there in complete ignorance. Was Kovy only doing what his agent told him? My gut says no, but I also haven’t eaten lunch yet, so that could just be hunger pains. Niemi is not innocent in this, is all I’m saying.
by Katherine215 on Jul 28, 2010 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions
The problem is
if they go for a 1-year deal & Niemi turns out to be a one-hit wonder, there’s no more payday for him or Zito. Right now is basically when they have the most leverage, unless they’re counting on him leading the ’Hawks to another Cup this season.
If this is their mind set
than I’d prefer he move on and we take our chances elsewhere.
This kind of thinking says to me that they don’t believe in their own product (namely, Niemi’s talent). If they have doubts about his ability to sustain his level of performance into this coming season and beyond then why should the Hawks be willing to take the chance on a big money contract that ties their hands even more.
It would be great to have Niemi in goal next year, but he’s not the only alternative that can provide the level of play required to make an honest run at the cup again this season.
"Life is a long lesson in humility."
- James M. Barrie
I'm with you on this
also I’m disturbed that Niemi doesn’t have that competetive drive to take a smallish 1 year deal to “prove eveybody wrong” and then get the big payday.
nothin but smiles
my Captain is better than your Captain
One consideration..
Niemi is an RFA, and so didn’t really have the free market to choose from. Any contract of the size his agent seems to want would cost a team a first and a third pick. If he gets cut loose by the Hawks after the arbitration number comes in, then they have no restrictions on finding a deal elsewhere (other than many teams being out of cap money).
I haven’t heard how many other teams are still looking for goalies, so I can’t say how big a game of chicken these guys are playing. But if we’re stuck with a semi-rebuilding year because of the bonus penalty, I’d go with Crawford-Toivonen and see who I could deal for during the season before trading away more of the core to fit Niemi in at their price. Bowman says no!
by The Deputy Mayor of Rush Street on Jul 28, 2010 11:31 PM CDT up reply actions
He has options, that's why.
“Judging by the way money is being thrown around in the KHL Niemi probably could sign a fat contract there for nearly double what a NHL team would offer. If a tax exempt payday in Russia doesn’t work there is always the Swedish Elite League. "
The NHL / US is not the only game in town to a Finnish hockey player.
"....we have to find a way to win. And good teams do that."
Tomas Kopecky May 29, 2010
Ruling on Niemi
Will the ruling be handed down tomorrow or are these just arguments. Also, do the people ruling on the case have any hockey experience?
19-88-81-2-7-10-36-4-51 : The Hawks
I believe
the arbitrator has 48 hours to give his ruling. So, we will likely find out late Friday or (most likely) Monday. I’m not sure if saturday counts, but if it does, we’ll hear on Saturday.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." -- Alvin Dark
No experience
I believe I read somewhere that the arbitrators are not hockey-astute, the purpose being to completely eliminate any bias that might occur with knowledge. Sounds fucked up, I know – and I could be wrong about it. But I think the whole point was to keep it as black and white as possible.
"It's the Chicago Blackhawks, man." - Jeremy Roenick
by The Fearless Freep on Jul 28, 2010 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions
They're not hockey people?
So will the arbitrator will be from Nashville or Columbus?
Or Atlanta? Or Miami? Or Raleigh?
Seriously, I think they are essentially labor-employer arbitration experts with no specific industry experience.
"It's the Chicago Blackhawks, man." - Jeremy Roenick
by The Fearless Freep on Jul 28, 2010 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Is this supposed to be
an arbitrator or Coach Q making up his lines?
Maybe, just once, someone will call me 'Sir' without adding, 'You're making a scene."
by cdz3210 on Jul 28, 2010 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Damn!
Beat me to it!!!!
"It's the Chicago Blackhawks, man." - Jeremy Roenick
by The Fearless Freep on Jul 28, 2010 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions
I'd still like to see the aluminum pole come out
but Turco would be a fine second choice.
39 years of pain vaporized by one OT goal.
Stalberg and Money
This guy says Stalberg isn’t likely to play with the Hawks this year because of his 850,000 cap hit. I was under the impression that Stalberg was a lock to make the team and I sort of had him pegged as one of those under the radar guys who could turn out to be a very pleasant surprise.
Once again, fuck the salary cap.
19-88-81-2-7-10-36-4-51 : The Hawks
I think they're taking every single cost-saving measure possible
like putting Toivonen ahead of Crawford, etc. in order to have the max. amount of money set aside to sign Niemi. It also looks like they don’t have a 7th D-man or 13th forward. Regardless, I think that if Niemi costs $3mil, I’d rather have Turco/Theo for half that.
i don’t know that i put too much stock in that analysis for a couple of reasons.
first up is their evaluation of the hendry contract situation. they have hendry possibly getting $1m to play this season. if the hawks thought that he was worth anywhere close to that much, they would have qualified him. a qualifying offer to the player is at least a 10% raise over their previous salary. hendry make $625,000, so his qualifying offer would have been $687,500. that would ensure he was an rfa and they could have negotiated towards a contract. instead the hawks chose not to qualify him and are working on a contract. that means that they don’t want to give him even a 10% raise. so more than likely he comes in around the $625,000 he made last year.
second they have no spare defenseman or forward on their roster. they don’t even keep john scott around in the 7th/13th role.
third is their evaluation of stalberg. they would rather have two players with zero or limited nhl experience on the roster rather than someone who showed some skill in 40 games last season. not to mention the fact that makarov is coming over from russia (after not being very impressive there) and will probably need time to adjust to the north american game.
so in essence this is someone trying to find as much possible money for niemi as possible. so don’t read anything into it regarding the stalberg thing. i think he’ll be there opening night.
This is my fear
An irrational gutting of the team in terms of depth players so that we can have the non-superstar goalie who won a stanley cup back with us again next year.
I don’t think its a good plan, I don’t think the GMs think its a good plan, and I will be amazed if it happens.
If niemi doesn’t pan out (2.2 or below), we ask turco, then theodore.
totally agree with you. i don’t know the author of that article but it appeared to me they were a big niemi fan. they were trying to squeeze every cent possible out of capgeek for him. i would much rather see a team put together based upon how people perform in camp so that if guys with higher deals (stalberg, lalonde, vishnevsky, even beach) perform that we have the room to play them. i’d hate the see the hawks go into camp knowing that they can only afford $500,000 guys.
He is now
only because we did not tender him an offer to keep him as an RFA.
this quote:
…most fans would likely hurtle over a precipice of despair over the continued loss of players they know
makes me doubt the article before I’m even through the first paragraph!
by Katherine215 on Jul 28, 2010 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions
What are Niemi's options?
He could go to Philly and fight for the #1 job which he’ll probably win. But I don’t see him getting anything more than 2M given the flyers cap situation. Or he could go to Nashville and be a backup to Rinne. Other than those two teams I don’t see any other openings for a goalie. Maybe DW will further worsen his relationship with us by signing him but he’ll have to move someone or give up on Setoguchi. Bill Zito put Niemi in a really bad spot. He should have acted quicker (before DW stabbed us in the back) and could have gotten Niemi a multi year deal with a lot more money (something like 4 yr/10M) than he’ll likely get from anyone at this point.
There's always the Islanders
Considering they lost Biron and DiPietro’s almost a lock to get injured (or is already out for the start of next season – anyone know his current situation?). Can’t really have Roloson running the show on his own.
No offense to Nemo
I love Nemo, but the market is not his friend at this point. I’m hoping StanBow and Zito can find middle ground before tomorrow but it’s probably not gonna happen.
Turco or Theodore would do just fine IMO.
Beer. Now there's a temporary solution.
If Niemi is unaffordable
What is to stop Stan from talking him up at the arbitration hearing?
Something to the effect of “…we know he’s a franchise goalie, but we can’t afford to pay him $5m/yr under the cap….he carried the team on his back & won a cup….slurp-slurp-slurp”
Drive the price up…way up. By doing this, another team is slightly hurt or if he signs somewhere for under 80% of the award, the Hawks get picks. At the very worst; Niemi goes to Europe/Asia to play.
Playing hardball with a lower salary may not be the best choice for the Blackhawks. Having both parties drive the price up may mean Niemi is priced out of the NHL or takes less money thereby giving the Hawks something in return.
If I knew there was no way I could afford to Niemi under the cap, this is what I’d try to do.
If he signs elsewhere, we don't get picks
regardless of the deal the arbitrator gives him, if the ’Hawks refuse, he becomes a UFA. No picks in exchange for him.
Bluliner is on the right track,
in that if he signs for less than 80% of the award, the Hawks have a week to sign him to the same deal (like an offer sheet).
by Katherine215 on Jul 28, 2010 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I just read your comment saying the same on the other thread
This is all very confusing. I’m not meant to be doing any more maths until the start of the University year…
You were right about the picks though.
you’re on the right track! :)
by Katherine215 on Jul 28, 2010 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Has anyone
Looked at this from the angle of “turco, in addition to his adequate skills, would be an excellent mentor for Corey Crawford?”
To me, that’s the biggest selling point here. You hit the nail on the head, niemi and turco are roughly identical, so the fact that turco could potentially groom Crawford into a 5-or-8-or-10-or-even-more year starter is a HUGE benefit. Thoughts?
CHICAGO BLACKHAWKS-2010 STANLEY CUP CHAMPIONS!
by elpjuly4 on Jul 28, 2010 2:53 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
There are a few teams that Niemi could get offers from
Philly (Leighton/ Boucher)
Ottawa (Elliott/LeClaire)
Toronto (Giguere/Gustavsson)
Florida (Clemmenson/Vokoun)
Tampa (Ellis/?)
San Jose (Nittimaki/Greiss)
Now would these other teams be willing to pay more than 1.5 mil for Niemi. I believe so. Given that Philly offered Turco 2 per for 2 years…
Toronto's a no-no
They’re already practically at the Cap, and they’re shelling out $6mil for Giguere next season. They’re not looking for a goalie.
Tampa still have Mike Smith, though I wouldn’t be surprised if Yzerman snatched up Niemi to get a nice trio of young keepers.
San Jose & Philly don’t have the space, unless they move players. I think they’re happy with what they have at the moment (in goal, anyway). I think Philly offered that to Turco before resigning Leighton, but I could be wrong.
The other are options, though.
I just went thru the Eastern Conference
I’m thinking the lack of a goalie market is severely understated….
Go through it again
and look for intelligence.
Think the Hawks have some bad contracts? The East is scary when it comes to spending money on garbage.
i don’t know that tampa would make that move. they have ellis and smith on the nhl roster and dustin tokarski ready to play the majority of the games at the ahl affiliate (norfolk i think). so unless yzerman sours on tokarski they have their own cap problems with stamkos’ next contract coming soon and an already cap heave team with lecaviler and st. louis.
Good point
Sorry, I was just looking at the goalie numbers on CapGeek. Didn’t realise they only have 8 players signed after the end of next season. Yikes.
Washington?
Their goalie situation is pretty checkered, but I don’t know if they have the cap room to sign Niemi.
they’re going to give the reigns to varlamov. they’ll have neuvirth (who just finished winning back to back calder cups in the ahl) as the backup. they’ll hope one of the two takes the reigns as the number one for years to come.
I liked what I saw with Neuvirth
and plus they’re Washington, it isn’t like goaltending is their bread and butter. They just have to hit the twine more than the other team, which they can.
I don't think they're 100% comfortable with that tandem
They’ve got around $6mil in Cap space with 2 forward spaces missing, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they tried to get Niemi for a year or two until Varly/Neuvirth was fully up to speed.
i’m not sold on varlamov either. he doesn’t seem to have it between the ears to recover from bad things (goals, games). neuvirth, on the other hand seems like he might be legit. if you’re going to give him the reigns, now’s the time to do it.
I'm not sure
Neuvirth got given a couple of chances and they seemed to go awry, hence why Varly was brought in during last year’s playoffs instead of him. I think he still could be a good goalie, but handing him the reigns without a legitimate safety net seems like it could blow up spectacularly.
i don’t follow the caps super closely, but i thought that last season the games that he played were due to injuries to varlamov and theodore. if you look at his game log here his stats are pretty decent and never allowed more than 4 goals in a game.
i was under the impression that they kept varlamov because he played in the previous playoffs and they were planning on riding theodore regardless. so rather then having neuvirth ride the bench they gave him the load in hershey and he lead them to the calder cup.
i guess my opinion is that niemi doesn’t have that many games more than neuvirth in his career (42 vs. 22) in the regular season. so playoffs not withstanding he doesn’t bring a ton of experience or anything.
the caps are going to be breaking in defensemen playing more minutes (alzner and carlson) so the could go w/ the tandem and hope one steps up. if they both falter there will be players available at the deadline to help shore things up.
personally i’d rather go with the 22yo over the 27yo.
By "last season's playoffs"
I meant 2009. Sorry if I didn’t make that clear. That season, he had a 3.00 GAA & .892 SV% in 5 games, so it’s no surprise Varly was brought in (injury could’ve been a factor too, though). It seems like he’s gotten better recently though, so it’s looking good for him.
I meant another thing
is if he stays w/ the Hawks he IS the starter. Each one of the other teams all have backups that can play for extended amount of time. If he enjoys and loves the game and wants like earlier said to prove himself.
2009-2010 Stanley Cup Champions
Chicago Blackhawks
San Jose?
Aren’t they paying their current pair too much as it is?
by northernsails on Jul 28, 2010 10:07 PM CDT up reply actions
If Nemo gets the 4 million dollar ruling
who would take him? Obviously, the Hawks let him walk. But to where? With Chicago he’s assured of being the number 1 goalie, assured of playing with a top defensive corps, assured of having a shot at the playoffs and the Cup again.
Nowhere else does he get those assurances. And even if he wins his arbitration, he probably won’t get the amount the arbiter says (I’m assuming it will be in the Halak range). So, where does he go? Who would want him? And for how much?
I’d really like to have him back, but this is the messy business of hockey in the cap era.
The Chicago Blackhawks -- 2010 Stanley Cup Champions!!!!!!
"I can't stop crying and laughing." Preacher
I just want to see what a guy like Niemi
Buys with his money! I’ve also always wanted to see a Devin Hester episode of ‘Cribs’
Afroman likes tall cans.
Hakkinen and Niemi
are from the same town in Finland. There’s gotta be something in the water there.
"NIEMI says NO!" vs. "TURCO!"
I would love to see Niemi back next year as well, but I do have to point out one VERY important consideration that I do not think has yet been discussed, debated, or even considered.
Think about this: would you rather have Pat Foley yelling “NIEMI” or even “Niemi says No” on a big save – a nice creation by the best in the business, but a name that, in my opinion, tends to be a bit soft to instill fear. Or TURCO! – a name with double hard consonants that sounds – to my ear – much more authoritative when shouted. I think TURCO has the potential for being the best goalie name for the BlackHawks since the single syllable PANG!
And yes, I know that I am grasping for straws here, but it seems we’ve discussed every other possible implication, so I am just rounding out the discussion with the absurd.
and you succeeded.
but you made me laugh too.
"It's the Chicago Blackhawks, man." - Jeremy Roenick
by The Fearless Freep on Jul 28, 2010 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Let’s not forget the confusion of seeing the Turco name without no. 35 underneath it. I am not prepared to see that.
I like it
Turco Sounds much better. Niemi was very original..
Fyi Pang is a bitch i hate him
by ChicagoWho?12 on Jul 28, 2010 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions
didnt (and dont) have any great fondness for Pang either
.. but he has (had) a great goalie name. Much better than the unfortunately names Steve Passmore, wouldn’t you say?
Pang is a really great guy, really great.
argue his merits as a player all you want – but Panger is a top notch person.
Preparing my psyche for the coming Capocalypse
Confusion will be my epitaph.
I dont know the Pang-ster...
…so I cannot say. It was ChicagoWho?12 who seems to dislike him.
But is sounds like really like the guy, and I LOVE you, so I will defer.
Stay or Leave
If Niemi isn’t going to give the Hawks a little hometown discount for discovering him and pulling him out of Finland then i say let him leave. I would love to sign a cheap Marty Turco with Crawford sitting on the benching learning everything that he can. The days of signing expensive goaltenders is gone….. We have one of the top scoring offensives in the league and we have one of the best young defenses. I say let him go get Turco a cheap veteran and bring up Beach. Im high on beach and i think this kid is going to be a stud and really make a bigger difference in the long run then Niemi!
Niemi WHoooooo
Like someone said earlier in the thread
How do we know exactly what the sticking point is? We are only hearing bits and pieces of the whole situation. Maybe it started out as a difference in the amount of years of the contract instead of the amount of money. Should we blame Niemi for all of this? He did just help win the Stanley Cup. Of course he should get a raise from his $800,000. It’s not his fault the Hawks can’t afford much of a raise. I’m sure he is thinking he needs to strike while the iron is hot. I don’t fault him for that. Would you want to go back to driving the Zamboni? I also don’t think that he will get much more money anywhere else either. Most teams already have their goalies in place. Both sides are walking that fine line and they just couldn’t meet in the middle. Hopefully the arbitration will go well.
How would you like a job where, every time you make a mistake, a big red light goes on and 18,000 people boo?
I don't
I also don’t think that he will get much more money anywhere else either. Most teams already have their goalies in place
This is my big “I-wanna-start-smacking-people-in-the-face-with-a-shovel” issue. There is a limited amount of money and a not much elsewhere to go. This is turning into Niemi wanting to get paid what he feels he deserves, not what is available.
It’s sort of like what was happening in baseball before the season started (in a way, I know it doesn’t all line up but stay with me).
There were all these players (yes, vets) that were unsigned. They thought they should be paid a certain amount of money based on their previous accomplishments. The Teams basically said “Well, money is tight so this is what we can afford to pay you.” The Players did not like this one bit and refused to sign for what they thought was less than their value.
What happend? The Players are sitting at home, not collecting a paycheck. And the Teams went with cheaper players.
My point is: Just because you think you should make X amount of $$ doesn’t mean you’ll get it. You take the market price or you take nothing.
nothin but smiles
my Captain is better than your Captain
How could you
want to smack Stacie in the face with a shovel? Lighten up, Frances!
I feel better simply because Stacie chimed in.
39 years of pain vaporized by one OT goal.
on this we agree
I feel better simply because Stacie chimed in.
I go drink now. Make happy thoughts.
nothin but smiles
my Captain is better than your Captain
I didn't personally think you wanted to slap me in the face with a shovel.
Yet if you did, ouch that hurts. :)
How would you like a job where, every time you make a mistake, a big red light goes on and 18,000 people boo?
i worded it badly
I was agreeing with that statement of yours, and because of the truth of it this thing makes me crazy
nothin but smiles
my Captain is better than your Captain
That's the same reason I haven't commented much
The whole capocolypse / fire sale / goalie situation is driving me nuts and there’s nothing I can do about it but wait until October when the first puck drops and pray we still have a winning team.
How would you like a job where, every time you make a mistake, a big red light goes on and 18,000 people boo?
you can have some of my This-will-all-work-out Koolaid
badgerdano likes his w/ Grey Goose. I must say it’s a wonderful addition
nothin but smiles
my Captain is better than your Captain
I thought you were all about the tonic (even if it is flat)
How would you like a job where, every time you make a mistake, a big red light goes on and 18,000 people boo?
Aww, you remembered!
No point in drinking Koolaid if there is no alcohol in it.
39 years of pain vaporized by one OT goal.
I have found
a sack of oranges works just as well and leaves no bruises. Oh shit I meant to say the bruise part with my inside voice. Dammit
Beer. Now there's a temporary solution.
O/T - talking basketball
I’m talking with my brother about basketball, & we’re unsure: how many players are on a b-ball team? We’re pretty sure it’s 5 on the court per team, but do they have lines like in hockey, or what?
P.S. I know I sound like an idiot, but fuck it, you guys have too many sports to be able to keep up with.
By the way
given how little either of us know about basketball, we could probably charge people to watch the conversation & make some money because of how hilariously clueless we are.
I don't know if I've watched a full game since the Bulls' dynasty
But I’m pretty sure you’ve got a 12-man roster, but your starting 5 can play all 48 minutes (or more if it goes OT). A good example would be the 2010-2011 Miami Heat
"I have only space enough to add: against the assault of desperate pandas nothing can stand."
-ChicoMaki (channeling Mark Twain)
by HungryHungryPanda on Jul 28, 2010 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm with you
Since Jordan retired (the 2nd time) I haven’t watched a full game since unless I had tickets given to me.
Nice referance with Miami…
2009-2010 Stanley Cup Champions
Chicago Blackhawks
Plus a goalie, eh?
Ya hoser!
I haven’t seen a Bulls game since MJ retired either. I have freely admitted in that bandwagon fan post a while back that I was a complete and total band wagon Bulls fan.
39 years of pain vaporized by one OT goal.
I jumped on that wagon
during the Celtics series 2 seasons ago. Man, that was fun.
nothin but smiles
my Captain is better than your Captain
12
Thats the number of players that can dress for a game. They can have more on a team (don’t remember the number) but only 12 can dress…
"Hey Sedin, your brother's ugly!"
Not my favorite sport but
There are 5 on the court same time, they have a bench and can make subs during whistles or times outs.
Total number of guys that dress I think is 12? I dont remember that
I could be wrong, I haven’t followed b-ball in a LONG time
2009-2010 Stanley Cup Champions
Chicago Blackhawks
and no there are no lines
but you will see sometimes the coach sub all 5 guys for the benchs 5 guys, usually if a blow out or end of half type of deal
2009-2010 Stanley Cup Champions
Chicago Blackhawks
There are 5 on the court and
12 players on a team. There are no “lines”. Substitutions are usually made to let the the starting players rest or if they get in foul trouble.
Maybe, just once, someone will call me 'Sir' without adding, 'You're making a scene."
well there's a half court line
and once the team on offense takes the ball across the half-court line into the other team’s zone, they are not allowed to let the ball cross back over half court unless the other team touches the ball first. or else it’s a turnover.
happy ninja is happy....and wants to share its new toy!
by puppetmasterp on Jul 29, 2010 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions
an NBA championship team usually needs at least two superstars
…and many complimentary players who know their role and execute. However, the Heat may have one too many now – and any star publicly expressing the thought that “now I won’t have to take the big shots all the time” is a real wuss.
I see what you did there Sam
compliment us to get us to read more…well played sir
FOR SALE: pair of shoes, red, size 32 1/2 wide. Please direct all bids to Joel Quenneville, Chicago Blackhawks. Clown horn sold seperately. Also for sale: 328 dogs+1 pistol (bargain price for Leafs fans!)
FREE HAWKS CONVENTION TICKETS!
Blackhawks convention passes giveaway!!! Check it out here: http://bit.ly/a0iku3
But with the fact that the arbitrator merely picks one side’s number or the other (I think that’s how it works, correct me if I’m wrong), if the Hawks came in with too low of a number that at arbitrator could justify choosing, he’ll go to Niemi’s which the Hawks brass would run screaming from.
You’re wrong, so here’s me correcting you. Per the CBA, there is no restriction on what salary the arbitrator can set. The only restriction is term – must be 1 year or 2 years, and this is set beforehand by the party that was not the source of the arbitration (since Niemi elected to go into arbitration, this means that the Blackhawks decide if it’s 1 year or 2 years). But as far as $$$ value is concerned, the only restriction is that it must be between league minimum and league maximum, just like every other contract. I think it’s safe to say, though, that the number is always somewhere in between what the team offers and what the player is asking for. The your-number-or-my-number arbitration I think is something from baseball, but I’m not too familiar with that.
by Beantown Canuck on Jul 29, 2010 4:04 PM CDT reply actions
Is there still anyway
We can atleast get a puck bag or some tape for huet?
by Buttfudge on Jul 30, 2010 12:31 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Second City Hockey
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Latest Puck Daddy - NHL from Yahoo! Sports
- Penguins, Bruins face their challenges in Eastern Conference showdown
- Olli Jokinen’s slump-buster is a Big Mac meal from McDonalds (Video)
- Friday’s Three Stars: Brassard wins it for Blue Jackets in overtime; Halak blanks Kings
- Puck Previews: Blues host Kings in first game after break; Blackhawks’ road struggles
- Best barometer of the St. Louis Blues’ success? Gifts from political lobbyists
Latest stories and headlines from NHL.com
- WHL Roundup: A look at Friday's games
- Gabriel and Leipsic two goals each as the Winterhawks defeat the Silvertips 7-3
- Feser solidifies Americans win with two empty-net goals against the Thunderbirds
- Holberg scores winner in shootout as the Chiefs beat the Royals 6-5
- Brown makes 26 saves to lead the Rockets over the Cougars 2-1
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
