It's Baby Steps To The Elevator, Not Bumbling To It: Isles 4 - Hawks 4 (Hawks Win Flip Cup 1-0)
by SamFels on Dec 2, 2011 11:29 PM CST
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Not even sure we need bullets tonight, because the issues are right there for everyone to see.
Over the past couple weeks, there's been a mob's squeal about the defense, how bad it is, how it needs an upgrade, and everything in between. And while this won't be the first time I've made this point, it will be the most definitive and the first time in a while:
If the Hawks defense is so bad, when does anyone have to answer for the fact that the Hawks traded their best d-man from last year for absolutely, positively nothing?
I know where some of you will go with this. This is not an indictment of Nick Leddy. Leddy's offensive game is right where I most hoped it would be. He's doing his best in his own end, but there are obvious hurdles that a 20-year old in barely his second year (and with games played, it's still kind of his first), is going to have a hard time overcoming. Niklas Hjalmarsson, as much as I pound him, isn't really any worse than he was last year. The third pairing is better than it was at this point last season, in case you've forgotten what Nick Boynton, Jordan Hendry, and whatever other goof was manning it. Keith and Seabrook? Bad change tonight, still can't say their markedly worse than what we saw last year, and in Keith's case he's probably better.
What the Hawks are missing, at least on the defense it seems to me, is another player besides Keith who can skate them out of trouble. That's not Leddy, who's skating only looks really good when given the time to wind up. But how many times did Phantom corral a scramble in front or behind, make a quick shift to shake a forechecker, and send the Hawks the other way? And did these turnovers in the neutral zone happen as much when it was 51 deciding on the first pass, chip, dump-in, or take it himself? I'll let you decide.
I understand the Campbell trade really can't be judged until this supposed glorious cap space that Stan Bowman gathered like a genius is used on whatever he's going to use it for. But at the moment, Campbell was moved for simply nothing. You can't get past that. And while we're on it, the Panthers moved David Booth, who would have been an actual piece, for hot garbage. Mikael Samuelsson and Marco Sturm might have a knee and a half between them. Did Booth's name never come up instead of Olesz? I bet we never find out, because no one is ever going to fucking ask.
Ah, but we're not done. The defensive problems wouldn't look nearly as dripping with puss as they do if Corey Crawford weren't as wonky as anything Cristobal Huet or Marty Turco put up this last month. It pains me to say it, but he does. Those first two goals were unacceptable. One was a rebound that looked like the soft toss drill we did for batting practice on my high school baseball team. The second was a terrible angle that left a pretty agile scorer in Moulsen far too much space on the short side. Those two goals don't go in, the Hawks enter the 3rd with a 3-0 lead and I doubt they're debating whether trying to hold or kill the game off.
There's no question that the Hawks are structurally off right now, but that can be fixed. But these two questions are what's on my mind, and I feel like they're not on enough other people's.
That said, if the Hawks save the good performance for tomorrow in St. Louis and take that one, we'll all feel a lot better.
At least Scotty Hockey will talk to me again. I think.
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I agree Sam
I had to miss watching the game live, but I was able to DVR it since it’s a NY team. Watching, all I could keep thinking of is that too often it looked like the team didn’t know how to get the puck out of the zone. Too much puck-watching and scrambling . And Crow was…not fabulous. Sigh.
Sidenote — perhaps someone who watches opponents feeds more often can tell me this: are opposing announcers usually so high-school bitchy about their opponents, or is that just my homer-glasses? The NYI announcers were nothing but passive-aggressive bitchy about the Hawks D, Crow’s rebounds, and how the Hawks PK sucks because they’re at the bottom of the league and that means something and hey did you notice that the Hawks PK sucks? Also, did you know that Montoya’s mom refused to take him to Chicago Stadium because the area isn’t really unsafe and they’re gentrifying now by making it all a parking lot (snicker snicker) …You’d think a team coming from Nassau would limit their snark about their barn being surrounded by parking lots & in a crappy area.
SCH Narc - check yo'self before you wreck yo'self.
don't really care about the Islanders so don't really know what's going on
But are their finances as bad as Phoenix or the Thrashers last year?
Charles Wang is loaded
But it is ridiculous for Long Island to continue to ask him to keep his team in that dump.
All he wants is a new rink.
If the Islanders leave the fans will have no one to blame but themselves (and the incompetent leadership they help elect).
The legs feed the wolf.
by Second City Southpaw on Dec 3, 2011 3:47 AM CST up reply actions
Worth remembering
after the Broad Street Bullies and before the Gretzky Oilers dynasties the crew from LOST rattled off 4 straight. It’s a shame what’s happened to them.
I remember paying a kid named Peewee $2 a game....
to park in the 70’s. I always worried my hubcaps were going to be missing, but after every game, Peewee, who grew to about 6’3" over the years, would be there smiling and waiting for his cash.
A good kid and a fond memory.
Hey I paid them BEFORE I went into the old barn
and there was always more than one – I didn’t care, it was a lot less than Red Top and you always knew your hubcaps would still be there when you got back.
Just (this minute)
going to post that. And wardrums must have parked on Park or Fifth Ave. On Monroe or Adams I gave the kids $.50 or a buck, as I was walking away to the Stadium.
My serenity is inversely proportional to my expectations.
LET’S GO YOU WHITE SOX!!!!!
yeah and if you didn't pay up when asked
good luck finding your car in one piece, if finding it at all. I had to tell a newbie that was with us at the time (in my friend’s AMC Gremlin, no less) that while it may look like extortion, consider it a neighborhood donation and pay up and then shut up about it.
I never had a problem with it. They'd say,
“Watch, yo cahhh, sir.” Peace of mind for $.50 or a buck.
My serenity is inversely proportional to my expectations.
LET’S GO YOU WHITE SOX!!!!!
I always parked under the L tracks on Madison
People’s parking. Never had a problem there.
Thank you, sir! May I have another?
lots of free street parking
within a block of $17 spots. anyone who thinks the area around he UC is unsafe has never been to a ghetto.
it was different 25 years ago, but I had a shitty car then, so street parking still worked.
We like our people!
Where? And what time do you have to get there?
lots of free street parking within a block of $17 spots.
My serenity is inversely proportional to my expectations.
LET’S GO YOU WHITE SOX!!!!!
if you're there an hour before game time
there are spots galore, in any direction.
i hate to give away my secrets, because things are already more crowded than a couple years ago, but (whispering) “go west, young man.”
I’ve been so late I’ve missed the Anthem sometimes, but I’ve never not found a street spot.
ok, when it comes to parking, now i’m a little worryd, but I can’t begrudge the SCH faithful.
We like our people!
Speaking of manifest destiny
Holy shit, does the NHL ever need to contract some teams. I recognized maybe 6 guys on the Islanders, and I follow most teams.
Of course, the Hawks tied them, so…
"I have only space enough to add: against the assault of desperate pandas nothing can stand."
-ChicoMaki (channeling Mark Twain)
by HungryHungryPanda on Dec 3, 2011 10:44 AM CST up reply actions
Probably because of Fantasy Hockey...
the Islander players aren’t that foreign to me. There’s a lot of offensive talent on that team.
That's where I park!
quit giving away the secrets, Cliff!
by Katherine215 on Dec 3, 2011 12:06 PM CST up reply actions
on a somewhat amusing side note - and I realize I'm giving away family secrets, but...
A few years ago my family pulled into a lot, after my wife told me to just park on the street, despite the no parking signs. There were quite a few other cars, so I guess I could understand her thinking. Deiscretion became the better part of being a cheapskate, and i pulled into the warmth and safety of the lot. iMemories of steve Goodmans song, “The Lincoln Park Pirates” you know, those graduates of the charm school in Joliet, raised an uneasiness deep within my soul.
As we walked to the U. C. I saw a policeman and asked him, “Hey, why are all these cars able to park in the no-parking area, is it ok for me to do it next time.” He told me they were all policemen and firemen cars and you needed some sort of identification. He did tell us we could park on Admas though which was one street to the South. I’ve been parking there ever since, although a well kept secret is now pretty much common knowlege and you have to get to the game about an hour early.
I don’t know what all that paying before hand was about! But I do remeber my brother always talking to Peewee, not just throwing money at him. And it seemed safer, (maybe less guns?), back then. It wasn’t so mucha worry about your physical well being, but someone breaking in and stealing your 8-track! (I can here my son Greg now, dad what’s an 8-track?) i also recall my dad, before handing out $2 (you big cheap skates!) questioning why the winshield isn’t cleared off! We’d be like, “dad, just give him the money!” Lets get out of here.
Waylon, the gremlin reminded me of some of the finer rides I had back then. I doubt I was the only one who scrapped frost off the inside of a winshield.
Thanks for the memories guys
memories
my brother had a window smashed and a suit (hanging inside the window) stolen near the Stadium about 30 years ago. Kinda stupid leaving the suit hanging in the window.
Also, in the 70s, when I was a kid, I went to a Sox game (serves me right) with an older neighbor who disdained paying off the street urchin. After the game, the car was trashed- windows smashed in, glass everywhere.
We were staring at the car when the little fuckers started pelting us with rocks, so we climbed in, sitting in our shorts on the glass (these were 70s shorts, mind you), holding up what remained of the windshield and getting the hell outta dodge.
good times.
We like our people!
were those da Italian kids or da black kids.
That story about sitting on the glass is one a hollywood writer couldn’t concoct. What a pain in the ass, eh?
I myself had the exploding gas tank Pinto
but at least back then I could actually do some work on it. Now? Pffft.
same here
without any mechanic training, I was able to replace the following on my pinto:
throw out bearing
master cylinder
alternator
plus oil changes, tune-ups, etc.
…and I would have replaced the catalytic converter if I had the proper welding tools.
Now…I have my mechanic change the oil.
Maybe it's booze, maybe it's glue, maybe it's gasoline. Maybe it's a gunshot to the head. But something. Something to relieve the pressures of their everyday life, like having to tie their shoes.
by hairhelmet on Dec 3, 2011 6:04 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
The Good Ol' Days
I remember going with my dad and paying $5 (?) to park at a Shell station that was 3 or 4 block west of the stadium. The we’d walk along Madison past liquor stores and convenience store with these steel gate over the windows and doors. Coming from the western ’burbs I thought that was really strange. We never had any trouble though….
by ToewsFatherInLaw on Dec 3, 2011 10:22 AM CST up reply actions
I know I can't listen to an opponent's feed
because I am definitely too much of a homer. If they’re are even slightly critical, I start feeling stabby. I usually get more upset if I don’t like the sound of the commentators’ voices. Washington and Boston are totally out for me because of the. What you described however, sounds really bad.
I think it was just I noticed that they spent more time being passive-aggressive about the Hawks
then focusing on their own team. It seemed to be more “oh and then Ja/Cha/Yalmerson makes a weak attempt at a clear” rather than “NYI-player keeps it in”. I wonder if that affected how I viewed some of the Hawks play.
It also got me wondering about Pat & Edzo – they ramble & wander off into a pot-induced haze at times, but I can’t remember them passively-aggressively snarking about the other team for the whole game.
I agree about Washington though – gah, their voices grate. Also on my list is Anaheim, not because of the sound, but the actual “commentary”.
SCH Narc - check yo'self before you wreck yo'self.
Pat can be pretty catty at times
He loves picking on the Sedins, for example.
Author of The Cubs Transaction Report
yes, but who doesn't?
but you’re right, he does do that. I guess I feel like it’s usually an isolated incident or two – not an entire game. Either way, it’s something I’m going to try to pay attention to the next time I get a Chicago feed. I usually tune out Pat & Edzo because I’m used to their voices. It’s harder for me to tune out new voices.
SCH Narc - check yo'self before you wreck yo'self.
It sure sounds like NYI's guys were worse than normal
so I’m not really arguing with you. But I think most teams’ announcers play to the home fans more than we realize, just because we’re used to it.
Author of The Cubs Transaction Report
or something
My actual syntax is pretty mangled there, but I hope you can tell what I meant.
Author of The Cubs Transaction Report
Jack Riley's an enormous douche
that’s part of the problem with the Bruins’ broadcasts.
Jack Edwards
Worst announcer in sports, and it’s not even close.
"I have only space enough to add: against the assault of desperate pandas nothing can stand."
-ChicoMaki (channeling Mark Twain)
by HungryHungryPanda on Dec 3, 2011 9:22 AM CST up reply actions
sorry, forgot his last name
but the point still stands that he really sucks donkeys.
It's not just you.
My other favorite team growing up was the Islanders, and I still follow them closely (which is why I cautioned the good folks on SCH that they should not take them lightly, despite their struggles).
The Isles’ broadcast crew is very snarky about opposing teams—-all teams. I couldn’t say why.
The legs feed the wolf.
by Second City Southpaw on Dec 3, 2011 3:44 AM CST up reply actions
My guess ...
because being snakry is tons of fun!
I politely withdraw my snarky comment based on lack of knowledge.
by Billy Charlesbois on Dec 3, 2011 9:38 AM CST up reply actions
It was so long ago...
But I swear someone on this page couldn’t get Stan’s dick out of their hands enough to type up how much they loved the Soupy trade. That always bothered me.
I posted the moment it was announced that they would regret making that move
and I think one person agreed with me at the time
I didn't post here then but I told my girlfriend
I’m gonna miss Soup/I miss Soup. But, we have to get to the realization, same as the team, that Soup is gone and they have to make up for it one way or another. Wait and see…
The thing was, he was such a nice guy also.
who do you keep though? Keith, Seabs or soupy. hard to carry 3 – $5mill or more d-men on the roster. He was such a huge part of the Stanley Cup.
I don't think everyone was happy to see Soupy go...
As much as they were happy to see his contract go.
Valuable asset?, yes. Overpriced?, yes. Sorely missed?, sometimes.
Using yesterday’s game as an example, I would say we missed Soupy, but did not miss Boynton shooting us in the ass in the third period. We were losing these games last year. With Soupy.
Sarcasm time: Is Campoli available?
"What doesn't kill us makes us stronger"
Especially Joey the Junior Reporter.
I don’t think everyone was happy to see Soupy go…
All priceless, but IMO, Campbell was the best.
My serenity is inversely proportional to my expectations.
LET’S GO YOU WHITE SOX!!!!!
BTW, where has Joey been?
Is it a sign of unrest / lack of fun in the locker room?
My serenity is inversely proportional to my expectations.
LET’S GO YOU WHITE SOX!!!!!
Mourned for days after hearing of that trade
Don’t think I’m exaggerating either.
Other peoples' opinions bother you?
by ChicagoNativeSon on Dec 3, 2011 12:31 AM CST up reply actions
not sure what bothers him
Strictly speaking, his post doesn’t make sense in English or other languages.
Author of The Cubs Transaction Report
I think he's bothered by the Stan worship
don’t know exactly what “that” refers to
I suppose that's what he's trying to say
but if you read it literally, he’s saying that someone failed to write about how much they loved the trade, because they had Stan’s dick in their hands. And that bothered him.
So I can only assume that he wanted more trade-approving posts.
Author of The Cubs Transaction Report
The man obviously
does not care for Stan to have a Happy Ending.
Maybe it's booze, maybe it's glue, maybe it's gasoline. Maybe it's a gunshot to the head. But something. Something to relieve the pressures of their everyday life, like having to tie their shoes.
Brian C is right about that post
Here it is in in Swahili.. it still doesn’t make any sense but it’s prettier to look at, don’t you think?
Ni zamani sana …
Lakini Naapa mtu juu ya ukurasa huu hakuweza kupata Stan ya Dick nje ya mikono yao ya aina ya kutosha juu ya ni kwa kiasi gani alimpenda biashara Soupy. Kwamba daima bothered yangu.
enough of the niceties: time for the eye-gouging..
and yes, I probably *should* be asleep right now!
Oh come on!
You and I had the same idea and the same language picked!!! You should really be concerned…
Thank you, sir! May I have another?
concerned?
I’m fucking terrified! GETOUTOFMYHEAAAADD!!
enough of the niceties: time for the eye-gouging..
and yes, I probably *should* be asleep right now!
Believe me
that’s the last place I want to be. I’m going with “I’ve taught you well.”
Thank you, sir! May I have another?
In Swahili it's quite clear.
Lakini Naapa mtu juu ya ukurasa huu hakuweza kupata Stan ya Dick nje ya mikono yao ya aina ya kutosha juu ya ni kwa kiasi gani alimpenda biashara Soupy. Kwamba daima bothered yangu.
Thank you, sir! May I have another?
if he knows what other people were going to write but didn't
his mind is working at a whooole other level than mine, that’s for sure
If graffiti changed anything it would be illegal
Yeah
Well Stan doesn’t move that 7 million dollar contract and in a few years, it’s unmovable. If you want that cap space, you have to sacrifice short term. Simple as that.
He's playing in the eastern conference
Stalberg would be lighting it up over there. It’s really not THAT impressive.
by Ban on Dec 3, 2011 3:15 AM CST up reply actions
Stalberg WAS over there
And he didn’t exactly light it up in half a season with the Maple Leafs.
He finished the season in the minors and the Hawks acquired him in the Steeger deal in the off-season.
The legs feed the wolf.
by Second City Southpaw on Dec 3, 2011 5:13 AM CST up reply actions
Another meme that makes no sense
The Eastern Conference is still the NHL, and isn’t so much worse than the Western Conference. This year, it might actually be better.
"I have only space enough to add: against the assault of desperate pandas nothing can stand."
-ChicoMaki (channeling Mark Twain)
by HungryHungryPanda on Dec 3, 2011 8:21 AM CST up reply actions
I didn't vote for them.
Maybe it's booze, maybe it's glue, maybe it's gasoline. Maybe it's a gunshot to the head. But something. Something to relieve the pressures of their everyday life, like having to tie their shoes.
true but then many of us asked the following question to the Soupy Lovers
like what would you like Stan to do in order to get out of cap hell – hole? I don’t think too many didn’t think that Soup wasn’t an awesome D – Man, and Sam’s point here about getting something remotely useful in return is correct, but the Hawks had to get out of that contract, one way or the other. I don’t remember anyone coming up with any viable alternative scenarios, other than pure wish – fullfillment fantasy trades. But memory’s selective – I could be quite wrong about that.
It was never about
Soup, or his performance, or what he did for the team. It was about $7m. For how many years? No question he’s missed, but like someone else said we need to see what Stan does with the cap room before the move can be judged completely.
by ToewsFatherInLaw on Dec 3, 2011 10:27 AM CST up reply actions
could be worse, could be snowing...
great picture of Harry Toews flying on his broom. What the hell game is it they play in Harry potter.
I’ll go further than the loss of campbell, which is not an easy hole to fill, (we have no choice but to wait and see what develops), but I thought we played very lackadaisical in our zone on defense. Hossa just kind of watches parentau bend down and tee it up. There was also a play by kane along the boards where he makes a weak poke check and freezes.
in short, i don’t see the intensity to kick ass in our zone.
Great third period Mr. Crawford. more please
"What the hell game is it they play in Harry potter."
Sky polo.
Author of The Cubs Transaction Report
but with bats
with which you can legally hit people. There would not be enough time in the world for Shanahammer videos.
more Agent Smith please
and yeah, I know he’s not the most talented guy out there most times, but at least he plays like he actually gives a shit out there. Stop sitting him, you can’t do any worse right now (or send him back to RockVegas) – that 3rd period was a damn shooting gallery at Crow, it’s getting to be a bad movie you have to see over and over again.
I think he's easily our best option right now
He doesn’t really do anything particularly well, and that turnover that led to Nino’s goal was real bad; yet, there he is scoring another goal.
"I have only space enough to add: against the assault of desperate pandas nothing can stand."
-ChicoMaki (channeling Mark Twain)
by HungryHungryPanda on Dec 3, 2011 9:35 AM CST up reply actions
It was pretty bad; he absolutely needed to get that puck deep with his mates changing, and he didn’t.
"I have only space enough to add: against the assault of desperate pandas nothing can stand."
-ChicoMaki (channeling Mark Twain)
by HungryHungryPanda on Dec 3, 2011 10:33 AM CST up reply actions
We wish we got nothing for Campbell.
They didn’t trade Soupy for nothing, they traded him for a $3million dollar liability. Trading him for nothing would have been better. Either was a trade that you have to make, though. I’d do it again in a second.
Breakouts are definitely a problem, but I don’t know if skating them out is part of it or not. Hjalmarsson in particular was horrific with his clearances tonight, but the whole team, offense and defense included was a giveaway party. Niklas needs to work on the blind slap around, because not only are they not getting out, they’re going right to guys coming in with steam.
I don't notice Hammer being as bad as everyone says.
I did notice he saved the game late in the third though by clearing the puck out of the blue paint.
that was a serious heart attack moment
he did good to jump in and get it out
"Well now you're just talking like Foghorn Leghorn!"
by justforkicks on Dec 3, 2011 12:15 AM CST up reply actions
but he plays for the Islanders
Therefore he should never excel or make any amazing plays. or score any goals. or try to lead his team to victory like our sick indivduals do.
Shh
You know better than to mention Hammer positives. You’re only allowed to point out his mistakes, regardless of how much statistics point in the exact opposite direction.
But in reality, didn't Stan trade Campbell for Sharp?
I loved Soupy as a player and even more for what he appeared to add to the locker room (because I have no idea from afar what really goes on there). But if the Hawks had kept that $7MM contract, there is no way they could have extended Sharp. So in essence, the Hawks traded Soupy this past summer in exchange for Sharp beyond this season.
I’m also not 100% convinced that Olesz is a total waste. Time will tell, I guess.
I dunno, I think we can pretty much safely say Olesz is a waste at the NHL level
There were thoughts that he wasn’t totally healthy this year, but apparently he’s playing well for Rockford. He’s Jake Fox on skates.
"I have only space enough to add: against the assault of desperate pandas nothing can stand."
-ChicoMaki (channeling Mark Twain)
by HungryHungryPanda on Dec 3, 2011 9:28 AM CST up reply actions
That is essentially the upside
As in the OP, yes, stan traded our best defenseman last season for a 3 million dollar bag of pucks. At the same time, if he didn’t make the trade when he had the opportunity, Soupy’s contract quickly becomes a 50lb weight around the neck of the salary cap structure of this team.
Our D took a hit in the interests of the future. That’s just the way it had to be (though I’d LOVE to know the process that led to getting Olesz in return)
But Sharp's hit doesn't go up until next year.
One could assume the cap would go up enough to cover his increase next year. But the new CBA is a question mark that I would guess Stan wasn’t going to risk? Campbell would have fit fine at the expense of Montador this year.
by Katherine215 on Dec 3, 2011 12:18 PM CST up reply actions
$ 3million dollar liability
is Wirtz’s liability now, not the Hawks.
My serenity is inversely proportional to my expectations.
LET’S GO YOU WHITE SOX!!!!!
no, it's the fans liability as ticket prices are raised too offset the red numbers.
it will work as long as a winning product is on the ice.
no no no
Ticket prices don’t work like this. They raised the prices because they can – they’re selling out the damn barn every night. Supply and demand.
The idea that ticket prices go up because salaries go up is owner propaganda, pure and simple.
Author of The Cubs Transaction Report
Absolutely right.
I’m mad that the blues are playing good. Now I’ll never be able to afford to go to Hawks games.
And if it was truly supply and demand
Prices would go up probably another 4×. The secondary market for tickets is pretty ridiculous. But they still have to preserve some semblance of fan loyalty…
secondary market
That’s a separate issue, though – the overall number of tickets on the secondary market is radically lower than the amount of tickets overall. If more tickets were available, the prices wouldn’t be so high.
Author of The Cubs Transaction Report
Meathead: “But, Campbell’s salary was ridiculous! He shoulda been rackin’ up a hunert’ points wit dat money. Tallon’s was a fuckin’ idiot.”
Me: “Clearly.” (rolls eyes, walks away)
"What the hell, let's review it." - Dale Tallon
"They are!" - Pat Foley
"What a farce." - Dale Tallon
by HawkVision on Dec 3, 2011 12:11 AM CST via mobile reply actions
I was sitting next to a guy tonight bitching about Hammer making $5 Million per year.
He also told me the reason we don’t do 5 on 5 for twenty minute OTs anymore was because no TV station would want to pick that up…
Sweet Lord. Yikes.
Of course he was overpaid, I don’t think anyone denies that. What makes want to bludgeon those shitheads to death with a mini-baseball bat are the ones who failed to see that he contributed (as Sam just described) ANYthing whatsoever.
"What the hell, let's review it." - Dale Tallon
"They are!" - Pat Foley
"What a farce." - Dale Tallon
by HawkVision on Dec 3, 2011 12:18 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Speaking of meatballs...
Was anyone listening to the guy on the postgame with Judd bemoaning our not resigning Brow (somewhat understandable) and ToMoKop as the reason the Hawks don’t have a physical presence on the ice?
LO-Fucking-L
Isn't that why they only do 5 minute OT's
for health and no station wants a Hockey game that goes into that much OT.
There are two positives to the Hawks being a dumpster fire in the early-mid 2000s.
1. I could take a piss and be back in my seat all during the span of a single TV timeout.
2. You didn’t have to put up with dumbasses like that anywhere near as often.
That being said, I wouldn’t trade for the old days ever.
"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...
Juror #7: You a Yankee fan?
Juror #5: No, Baltimore.
Juror #7: Baltimore? That's like being hit in the head with a crow bar once a day.
As a Cubs fan, I understand what being a Baltimore fan feels like...
by Curtain Jerker on Dec 3, 2011 11:02 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
He's partially right on the OTs
Part of national broadcasters reluctance to pick up the NHL was the length of regular season OT games with no scoring, and audience games like that can shed, and the league believed casual fans don’t like ties. Thus, the shootout was born.
Chicagoan in the Lou.
Hmmm...
I don’t see the loss of Campbell being that big of a deal.
For one thing, a big part of the defensive woes is the PK, and it’s certainly a stretch to say that the PK is missing Campbell much. He was never a noted PKer anyway, and besides, lest we forget the PK was basically dogshit for long stretches of last year, too. It’s not like this is a recent development.
Second, I don’t think the puck possession is really hurting with Leddy either:
Relative Corsi, Hawks’ d-men, 5-on-5:
Leddy: 4.1
Lepisto: 3.1
Scott: 2.8 (haha)
Montador: 1.1
Hjalmarsson: 0.6
O’Donnell: -0.4
Seabrook: -1.7
Keith: -9.5 (barf)
So, I don’t know how meaningful that is, but it matches my perception of the situation fairly well. Leddy is prone to the occasional rookie turnover, but it seems like most of the time, when they really get pinned in their own end, it’s Keith who’s scurrying around flailing at nothing.
Third, I agree that Crawford’s becoming a real problem. As CNS pointed out in one of the GDT threads tonight, the Hawks’ defense is actually doing a fair job of limiting opponent’s shots – they’re currently 7th in the league in fewest SA/G. But they’re 26th in save percentage! What does that have to do with missing Campbell?
So, to sum up:
1. Pathetic PK
2. Keith fail?
3. Inadequate goaltending
So we’re going to pin the blame here on the Campbell trade? I can’t agree without a much stronger argument than what Sam’s presenting here.
Author of The Cubs Transaction Report
Ah
I see what you did there! Brings to mind images of ginger monkey-men…
Author of The Cubs Transaction Report
I agree
Your points are totally valid, and for the past two weeks I’ve been saying that the goaltending is the real issue that the MSM wants to ignore. My point, not very well illustrated as usual, is that with every writer and fan with a twitter feed calls for a trade for a d-man, at least some attention has to be paid to the fact that the Hawks peddled a very useful one for nothing.
www.secondcityhockey.com
www.anfieldasylum.com
hey, it improved are farm team...
JK
A very frustrating game. As bad as the Islanders record is, that team can bring it now and then
Well
to that I basically say, “Fuck the MSM”. In all seriousness, who needs ‘em? We can check on Tracey’s Twitter feed now and again, but other than that, they:
a) have little to no effect on what the Hawks actually do,
b) provide little actual news that we can’t get for ourselves, and
c) can’t begin to provide the analytical chops that the blogosphere has.
So why worry about those clowns?
Author of The Cubs Transaction Report
The defense no doubt bares some responsibility but...
…when you have a goalie who’s a fucking sieve that makes everyone that much tighter and that much worse.
Crawford will NOT be the starter by this time next year-not that that helps us too much right now.
We have big problems between the pipes and I don’t see a hell of a lot that can be done to fix them.
Aw c'mon Koolaide
he played very well in the third when the rest of the team was tripping over each other or skating around the rink with their thumb up their ass.
Since the last time we played St Louis
…….wardruns says " the rest of the team was tripping over each other or skating around the rink with their thumb up their ass."
exactly ….well said ,,,,,rec it…….plenty of talent to dominate ……..but there is some type of funk brewing on this team. This is the 2nd year of this behavior…..started to suspect ……..Q
H'8ter Proof™
by ccm on Dec 3, 2011 7:02 AM CST up reply actions
to me it seems you have to have sort of a meaness, asadistic delight in be considered evil by the other team
Jamal Mayers has an attitude like that -
5on5
2010
SOGA/60: 24.0 – 1st in the league
Sv%: .902 – 29th
Result: GA/60: 2.40 – 12th
Overall: 2.55 GA/Game
2011
SOGA/60: 27.5 – 4th in the league
Sv%: .915 – 18th
Result: GA/60: 2.30 – 12th
Overall: 2.74 GA/Game
2012
SOGA/60: 27.7 – 4th in the league
Sv%: .903 – 26th
Result: GA/60: 2.70 – 19th
Overall: 3.12 GA/Game
So yes, Hawks were a team that could win with average goaltending in 2010. Obviously so, since they won with the 2nd worst 5on5 goaltending in the league.
Last year, not so much the case. They needed the improved goaltending to make up for the increase in shots-against to stay in the same place. PK sucked
This year, shots against are still the same, but the goaltending is back to 2010 levels, which adds almost an extra half goal per game. PK sucks even more than last year.
So, since the Hawks 5on5 offense this year has been better than last season – and as good as 2010, their shots against are the same as last year, and the PK is the one that’s suffering most, not sure how this can be attributed to an offensive d-man?
by ChicagoNativeSon on Dec 3, 2011 12:27 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
And now to suit our great computer...
you’re magnetic ink. The Moody blues
CSN how the hell do you pull that out of your hat at 12:30 am
Let's just say "hockey interests me"?
And before anyone asks, Keith’s QualComp has been nearly identical for the past 5 years. He led the defense 4 years and was 2nd to Seabrook once.
Also, “TEAM” is GAOFF/60.
And in Keith defense for this season, his GAON/60 was around 3.00 for the first half of the season, it started skyrocketing when the Sv% plummeted. Since he gets the most TOI, it has a greater effect on him than any other player. But still the rest of the team has the same goaltending when he’s off the ice, so maybe I’m just trying to find a silver lining since, for example, Hjammer’s GAON/60 has improved over the same stretch.
by ChicagoNativeSon on Dec 3, 2011 12:50 AM CST up reply actions 5 recs
Ha!
I wish I was because I came across this data actually trying to prove that Keith hasn’t been as bad as some people suggest. What I found definitely shocked me.
I really don’t know what to think of the graph. I’m a big fan of Keith and believe he’s one of the best all round defenders in the league, but by simply looking at the data, one wouldn’t conclude that.
So, I’m actually hoping some of the smart people here can figure out this riddle of data.
by ChicagoNativeSon on Dec 3, 2011 12:56 AM CST up reply actions
CNS has discovered the SCH secret
we’ll believe anything as long as it comes with a pretty/funny picture.
/sarcasm
//I actually really like CNS’s stats-charts
///I don’t like how that line skyrockets up :|
////Actually, I’m not fully sure what that chart really means…
SCH Narc - check yo'self before you wreck yo'self.
So basically
Keith is on the ice for more goals against…
I assuming that's snark
but no, not just more goals against (since you would expect that since he gets a shit ton of ice time), but much more goals against per 60 minutes.
Even with the increased ice time, one would expect this rate to be similar to the rate when he’s off the ice (Team) – and for an elite defenseman, you would expect the rate to be higher when he’s off the ice, so this is dramatic.
by ChicagoNativeSon on Dec 3, 2011 1:02 AM CST up reply actions
so you expected the lines to be more similar to each other?
or you expected them to be switched?
SCH Narc - check yo'self before you wreck yo'self.
At least similar, but possibly switched
I mean, if Toews or another star play is on the ice, wouldn’t you expect the numbers to be better than when they’re off?
I’m gonna look at other high caliber d-men around the league and see how they stack up ON/OFF.
by ChicagoNativeSon on Dec 3, 2011 1:15 AM CST up reply actions
No it's fatigue
Does this include just 5 on 5 hockey or PK too. The Hawks PK has been markedly worse and he’s been abused on the TOI on the PK. Which I’m not sure this is controlled for… Particularly while Seabs was out..
D2K
Was never known as a 2-way Dman, he is good when Seabs has been able to protect him.
Have to argue
He most certainly has been known as a 2-way d-man. Offensively minded, yes, but they’ve always leaned on him hard on the PK and against the opponents’ top lines.
Author of The Cubs Transaction Report
Keith's Norris year is the definition of an elite 2 way dman
"What is icing?"
"Well, uh... icing appen when uh the puck come down... bang, you know, before the other guys, nobody there, you know. My arm go comme ça then the game stop then start up."
by anActiveStick on Dec 3, 2011 2:13 PM CST up reply actions
Except that
Keith’s ATOI is down over a minute from last year and just under a minute from 2009-2010.
Author of The Cubs Transaction Report
"You would expect", yes,
but does it actually turn out that way? Numbers this season for other elite defensemen:
Chara, BOS: 1.69 GAon, 2.21 GAoff
Weber, NSH: 1.32 GAon, 2.92 GAoff
Lidstrom, DET: 1.57 GAon, 1.86 GAoff
Doughty, LAK: 1.47 GAon, 2.23 GAoff
Green, WSH: 2.44 GAon, 1.14 GAoff
OK, that last one was a joke. But that seems like a good comp for DK right about now.
IOW … yikes.
Author of The Cubs Transaction Report
Thanks for saving me the trouble
I just mentioned above I was gonna look at comparables around the league.
Ya think much of this has to do with the fact that maybe, just maybe, Keith is human after all and the increased ice time is slowly killing him?
by ChicagoNativeSon on Dec 3, 2011 1:18 AM CST up reply actions
ice time
Do you mean accumulated ice time, over the years? Because as I noted, his ATOI is down significantly so far this year.
But either way, doesn’t the data sort of suggest that we’ve been overrating him for years, before the ice time became an issue? I mean, this year at least, we’re still dealing with sample size issues; it won’t take much improvement to send his GAon down pretty quickly. But for years now he’s been above the team rate by significant margins.
Author of The Cubs Transaction Report
Yeah, I meant accumulated
and even though it’s down, it’s still quite high for a guy who expends a lot more energy than the average defender (someone over at C&B actually graphed Keith’s movement on the ice).
I said in 2010, he should have won the Norris in 2009 which was his best season, but like most awards, you need to build a rep first.
by ChicagoNativeSon on Dec 3, 2011 1:30 AM CST up reply actions
You're probably right
But I wonder what can be done about it. Q will get serious about limiting his ice time right about the time that DK keels over and dies, and perhaps not even then if someone else is also hurt.
Author of The Cubs Transaction Report
None of it matters,
Keith’s lungs take in 30% more oxygen than the rest of us!! oh wait…
"I killed a man 'cause he killed my goat."
I loved those skating patterns they did for Keith, made him look like a kid loaded up on pixie sticks
"I have only space enough to add: against the assault of desperate pandas nothing can stand."
-ChicoMaki (channeling Mark Twain)
by HungryHungryPanda on Dec 3, 2011 8:27 AM CST up reply actions
If you consider Lidstrom a normal human being
Unbelievable how much economy of movement Lidstrom has. Keith is superhuman in his agility and endurance, and Lidstrom is superhuman in his efficiency.
"I have only space enough to add: against the assault of desperate pandas nothing can stand."
-ChicoMaki (channeling Mark Twain)
by HungryHungryPanda on Dec 3, 2011 9:14 AM CST up reply actions
I agree
This is wicked. Reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYcvLw_jkkk. Seriously, watch that link, it’s fucking hilarious.
www.mjt.org
by ChicoMaki on Dec 3, 2011 9:11 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
That is great!
So what this shows is that humans have a natural tendency to cycle the puck?
I bet Stalberg would go in a completely straight line.
"I have only space enough to add: against the assault of desperate pandas nothing can stand."
-ChicoMaki (channeling Mark Twain)
by HungryHungryPanda on Dec 3, 2011 9:19 AM CST up reply actions
Ha! Ya … I didn’t make the connection, but there are definitely sections of time in the offensive zone corners where this happens … and little did we know that all along they’ve just had their eyes closed and believed they were making a bee-line to the net.
www.mjt.org
It’s called “pulling a Skille”
and little did we know that all along they’ve just had their eyes closed and believed they were making a bee-line to the net./blockquote>
"I have only space enough to add: against the assault of desperate pandas nothing can stand."
-ChicoMaki (channeling Mark Twain)
by HungryHungryPanda on Dec 3, 2011 12:37 PM CST up reply actions
Funny
but the one most similar is style of play is Mike Green
Yes and no
Green is more like Campbell, a rushing, offensive, d-man. Keith is a puck-moving, two-way, defenseman.
Also, Keith plays on the shutdown pairing, Green doesn’t.
I get what you’re saying, but those other defenders all play on the shutdown line too, so they’re the most comparable IMO.
by ChicagoNativeSon on Dec 3, 2011 1:22 AM CST up reply actions
Unfortunately for Keith
He was on the ice for four of Calgary’s goals and seven of Edmonton’s. Those two games were horrible, but obviously not indicative of some of the solid games he’s had. He’s a lot better than those stats indicated, but he’s also been paired with Bolland’s line which has been down as well.
So what about last year, and the year before?
by ChicagoNativeSon on Dec 3, 2011 1:19 AM CST up reply actions
Well last year
was not his year, but the fact that it’s so close to his Norris winning year is interesting. I can only think that because he’s always against top lines that it’s a matter of moderating how much they’re going to score, or he’s constantly plagued with really crappy games occasionally. Then there’s a matter of seeing who he’s partnered with.
Perhaps what you are saying can factor into this
This is Crawford’s Stats for the season
SA/G has been pretty consistent (Running AVG) around 28 per game. Trying to figure out this has me a little baffled. EV GA/60 has been fairly steady for over a month and PP GA/60 has been slowly dropping over all for almost the past month. However GAA has been rising and SV% is total shitting over the same stretch.
As a note, the EV and PP GA/60 are 60 minutes ice time, not 60 minutes at EV or PP only.
by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Dec 3, 2011 7:23 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
This is a great visual, thanks TMFF
This could almost double as a Duncan Keith skating pattern.
"I have only space enough to add: against the assault of desperate pandas nothing can stand."
-ChicoMaki (channeling Mark Twain)
by HungryHungryPanda on Dec 3, 2011 8:28 AM CST up reply actions
I read or heard somewhere
Maybe “NHL on the Fly” that the Hawks have the worst SV% on the PK in the league.
What does that mean, is that an indictment of Crow or the D.
No worries, this was the plan all along!
Yeah but that doesn't control for a lot of variables
for example, the net the Hawks defend is probably just bigger. Part of the new NHL handicapping system.
I knew it was something.
I just didn’t take that in to account. Silly me.
No worries, this was the plan all along!
Keith and Campbell
That’s a really interesting revelation CNS… and while I haven’t been able to pull together any new stats this year (I’ll get to it eventually, I swear!), if I haven’t been lemming-i-fied in my views I think my eye-test has told me that Keith is not playing anything like Norris quality, and this team has had severe problems filling Campbell’s hole.
The latter observation I’ll admit I partly picked up from a little bit of groupthink but I have been saying it since we traded him. I even mentioned to aeroplane in the thread last night that I thought part of our defensive woes have been our lack of commitment to puck possession in the offensive zone — that’s partly on not having this so-called “offensive defenseman” (really I would say more “transition defenseman” because as you’ve pointed out, Soupy wasn’t that huge a contributor from a scoring perspective).
OMFingG
It’s sad that I thought the same thing you did
"What is icing?"
"Well, uh... icing appen when uh the puck come down... bang, you know, before the other guys, nobody there, you know. My arm go comme ça then the game stop then start up."
by anActiveStick on Dec 3, 2011 2:34 PM CST up reply actions
Just out of curiosity
and I know this basically goes against the idea of statistics, but how much does the graph change if the weekend in Alberta is not used?
FifthFeather.com
by El Duque's Raft on Dec 3, 2011 10:06 AM CST up reply actions
Not that much actually
Keith was well over 3.00 GA/60 before that game. By estimation, I’d say at most it would drop to around 3.75.
by ChicagoNativeSon on Dec 3, 2011 11:03 AM CST up reply actions
you've laid it out nicely as usual
1. Problem #1 is Crawford. Is he slumping or was last year an aberration? The fate of the Hawks season hinges on the answer to this question.
2. This has been a weird up and down season for Keith. Overall, I’d say he’s been worse than last year, and your numbers suggest this is true. Unlike many, however, I did not think he was dogshit last year. And may I remind people that the Hawks gave up 37 shots a game in the three games Keith missed this year.
3. Sam is plain wrong on this:
the Hawks traded their best d-man from last year
a. The Hawks biggest problems this year are on the PK. Campbell didn’t play on the PK. Even on the mighty Panthers, he’s the number 4/5 PK choice. If Brian Campbell is your best defenseman (which he wasn’t), your team sucks.
b. Why are we now pining for last year anyway? If the idea is to win a Cup, keeping last year’s team intact wasn’t gonna do it.
c. The current team isn’t as good as last year’s team, but we knew this before the season started. Ultimately, whether the off-season moves were a good idea hinges on what Stan does between now and the trade deadline.
We like our people!
Really good point on the PK
That has to be responsible for a lot of Keith’s bad stats right?
I really have to wonder how we went from one of the best PKs in the league to one of the worst in the span of two years. Most of our personnel and coaching are the same. Did Sopel, Madden, and Versteeg really make that much of a difference?
Campbell
Actually did play on the PK last year – 1.73 ATOI 4-on-5 last year, sixth on the team (4th for d-men).
Doesn’t change your overall point, though.
Author of The Cubs Transaction Report
yeah
he was neck and neck with Campoli for #4 there, which tells you all you need to know.
i saw you had an almost identical comment to mine after I posted. Sorry for stepping on your toes.
We like our people!
"stepping on my toes"
LOL. Not worried about it!
Author of The Cubs Transaction Report
The personell
on D is better than last year and possibly equal to or better than the year before (on the whole) so it is either something drastically wrong with the system the coaches are employing or something drastically wrong with the way the players are performing within the system.
For the life of me I can’t understand how the PK went from SO good to SO shitty SO fast. I mean with the talent the have on the blue line it would almost have to be a concerted effort to suck as bad as they do on the PK
No worries, this was the plan all along!
Also
Do you happen to know if Keith is facing tougher opposition, or playing more minutes, or stuff like that? It could be that we’re way more dependent on Keith’s performance than we used to.
my $0.02
I think Marlboro 72 has drawn the toughest assignments for several years.
Keith and Seabrook used to be a shutdown pair par excellence (my guess is Seabrook’s numbers show a simiar trajectory to Keith’s.)
Keith in particular took on an expanded offensive role in 2009-10. It got him a Norris, but the GA went up quite a bit, as you can see. Last year, his offense sagged but his defensive didn’t improve.
My gut was to tell 72 to go back to defense first this year, but, when you unload Campbell, you can’t really do that. So, we live with Keith as more of a high-risk/high-reward d-man, which is a much different role than he had three years ago.
But we’ve seem what the Hawks look like with Keith out, which tells me this is more of a team defense problem.
We like our people!
As mentioned, QualComp nearly identical for 5 yrs (and highest on team 4 time, 2nd to Seabs once)
Minutes have slowly increased every year until this season. I do personally believe this is (a big?) part of the problem.
by ChicagoNativeSon on Dec 3, 2011 5:20 PM CST up reply actions
That is damned interesting
I’m curious CNS, can you produce the same chart for the same period for Seabrook, Campbell and Hammer (one season less for Hammer of course)?
by Paul the Fossil on Dec 3, 2011 12:09 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, I have the data for them already and Seabs' chart is done
maybe I’ll do a fanpost this week.
by ChicagoNativeSon on Dec 3, 2011 5:23 PM CST up reply actions
i've been trying to defer full judgment on the Campbell move
until we see what’s done with the cap space at the deadline. It is getting harder to do that, however. I thought fine, we give up a bit of D in exchange for more fully unleashing all our offensive weapons. But I am amazed at how it is unraveling — clearing, goaltending, backchecking. Thanks CNS
If graffiti changed anything it would be illegal
fuck the moody blues
that is all
Many Shubs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Sloar that day I can tell you!
by Gozer the Traveler on Dec 3, 2011 1:57 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
For al the depth they allegedly have...
The Hogs absolutely blow
yeah, that's abit strange.
It seems like they have a boatload of talent, yet they currently sit i last place. If they were among the division leaders, they might be playing to a full house in the Big R
Remember that AHL is like AAA
and that the team is pretty young. Players like Olesz will help them win more, but that doesn’t mean that they have good prospects
I mentioned this in 2883's post
and the Hogs have a lot of good players injured without much offense.
Few things about the Hawks recent struggles
I don’t think the main problem is not having 51 anymore, I think it’s a team wide problem of playing like dogshit in our own zone. We’ve seen forwards leaving guys open, d-men getting out of their lanes and the goalies giving up way too many softies. It really isn’t just a few guys fucking up, it’s most if not all. This needs to be cleaned up for this team to do anything this year. You can be as talented as you want, if you play lazy in your own zone you won’t win dick.
As far as Crawford goes, it’s time to give Emery some starts and let Corey watch for a while. I’m not sure if this is just a slump or a bigger issue but I think he needs some bench time. His play as of late has been not good and not helping us at all. This is a good month to stack up wins and if it means Corey sits out a few games, then so be it.
I wish the Hawks approached every game like they were playing Vancouver or San Jose, in those two games on the current road trip they played outstanding in both. They played smart, simple, responsible and for the most part – mistake free hockey. It almost seems like they play both up and down to their competition. Games against the likes of the Isles, Flames, and Panthers shouldn’t be as hard as they’ve been. Bottom line is this team needs to be smarter and more responsible going forward, they’re too fucking talented to be in shootouts with the Islanders.
by doctor pants on Dec 3, 2011 12:52 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
I agree. So many very simple things not being done … failing to get the puck deep once we’re past the red line, getting caught on brainless line changes; not getting the puck out of our zone crisply (which is some of what Fels refers to with Campbell’s absence), constantly over- or under-skating positional assignments; and an absolutely putrid PK. It worries me, because these are all things—or should be—that you’d imagine would be coached away.
The lost goalie, not as coachable, but something needs to give there, no doubt. We signed Emery for EXACTLY this kind of situation, this or injury … let him do his job—at the very least, his numbers aren’t going to be worse than Crow’s right now.
www.mjt.org
Love the post, rec'd it for the 1st paragraph.
But review the Vancouver game. IMO, even though they won going away, they were badly outplayed. they really didn’t play outstanding.
My serenity is inversely proportional to my expectations.
LET’S GO YOU WHITE SOX!!!!!
I realize the
Panthers are a much better team this year, but they’re not the Pens/Nucks/Wings/Sharks/B’s…..at least not yet.
They're still good
2 points on the road against them = good win. That’s not a game where they should be expected to get their rout on.
Author of The Cubs Transaction Report
hey guys
at least we got 2 points tonite.
///////////kool-aided
by putmeinthemadhouse on Dec 3, 2011 1:40 AM CST reply actions
At this point, the standings lie.
This is NOT a playoff team based on the quality of play.
Crawford is not an HNL caliber goaltender. He got hot at the right time last year, but it seems the statistical anomaly is evening out with every game played and shit goal allowed.
The defensive play by both forwards and defensemen is just astonishingly bad. It’s everybody on the team just says ‘fuck it’ as soon as the other team crosses the blue line.
The top offensive players are doing pretty well in the other team’s end though, so that’s nice.
2 points or not, when one of the worst teams in the league takes you to the limit, changes need to be made.
Blackhawks bleed Red & White.
We are all Canucks...including Toews, Sharp, Keith, Seabrook, ...need I go on?
jeez.
Or maybe this is bit of a slump and there’s no reason to panic? If you play like garbage and still take two points that’s good, right? And how exactly do the standings lie?
You’re entitled to your opinion on Crow… don’t think you’ll find too many takers though.
Anyway..
enough of the niceties: time for the eye-gouging..
and yes, I probably *should* be asleep right now!
i didn't realize playoff teams were established after 25 out of 82 games
learn something new everyday.
"Well now you're just talking like Foghorn Leghorn!"
well, there you go
and knowing is half the battle.
remember when Detroit had that losing streak at the start of the season? No, me neither.
enough of the niceties: time for the eye-gouging..
and yes, I probably *should* be asleep right now!
The Blues?
My serenity is inversely proportional to my expectations.
LET’S GO YOU WHITE SOX!!!!!
so Crow got hot at the right time, you say?
more like got hot for the entire season.
2 things
1. even if they are in last place they are still a NHL team with NHL caliber players in a league trying to pride itself on parity. just saying.
2. So if the standings lie and our hawks are the 9th best team in the league then that make the canucks the 8th and they are a playoff team. hmmmmm I don’t think the standings lie that much
Part of a Coaches job is find synergy on his lines
…..you know like the Kane Hossa Carcillo that played together at the begining of the season and became dominate……….but nooooooooo he just had to blow that up.
H'8ter Proof™
Third Period Thread Comment Count is at 666
That explains a lot.
Thank you, sir! May I have another?
I'll consider it a more ominous sign ...
when it lands on my credit score: REEE REEE REEE REEE REEE
I politely withdraw my snarky comment based on lack of knowledge.
by Billy Charlesbois on Dec 3, 2011 9:45 AM CST up reply actions
Bickell sucks so bad ...
I didn’t even notice him out there last night. Cut that guy!
I politely withdraw my snarky comment based on lack of knowledge.
by Billy Charlesbois on Dec 3, 2011 9:51 AM CST reply actions
Hossa
1. Big play to draw the penalty to set up the PP to give the Hawks a 3rd period lead.
2. Amazing play on the goal. Kane passed to Sharp, Hossa was in between, but he knew the pass was for Sharp, so he lifted his stick and let the pass go through. Just awesome awareness.
3. On the shoot-out, he did the Kopecky (head down, chopping wood) before shooting (contrast Toews.) What was up with that?
We like our people!
Here's my issue
As fans we want this team that dominates zone to zone start to finish for 60 min a game. never lacking in any part of the game. When we lack a little bit we do the fan thing analyze with statistics/eye tests criticize and hope management sees the same thing we do.
Reality is the western conference of the NHL is so tightly competitve (by design) that the top 10 teams are seperated by 6 points and even the last place teams like the ducks could go on a tear and make the playoffs (see devils last year).
So in my mind a win is a win is a win. Beat the non-playoff teams. Win more than 50% against playoff teams. Win the cup. Consider the Kool-aid dispensed and DRANK.
Btw. I miss Campbell and Crow has been soft as of late. I just don’t think now is the time to say “THIS TEAM BLOWS! Make changes! move that stuff over there. Redecorate Q’s office so he won’t feel the need to shuffle all the lines.”
See how they play tonight. If shitty then
"THIS TEAM BLOWS" is warranted.
My serenity is inversely proportional to my expectations.
LET’S GO YOU WHITE SOX!!!!!
Agree on the Crow comments
First two goals were so bad. He’s been skittish for two or three weeks. Fifth Feather’s tweet about any defense looking crappy in front of an 85% clip save goalie was spot on. He’s got some work to do to snap out of this current funk.
As far as Soup, I don’t disagree with your assessment on what the team is missing without him. I still don’t disagree with Stan’s decision to make it, either. Dale probably wasn’t taking that contract without giving up and equally shitty one (money only, not talent) in return. Our’s just happened to be attached to a useless person in Olesz. He’ll get Souray’d next summer.
A win tonight is necessary to ease concerns. Preferably a performance from Crow like the one he put up in LA.
by JesusMarianHossa on Dec 3, 2011 11:04 AM CST via mobile reply actions
When Kane was at center
he was never the best defensemen but he was much improved over recent years and his willingness tos use the body carried over into board battles in the offensive zone. Last night Kane was right back to his ole bullshit in all three zones. He was phoning it in. Might as well put him back at center if this is what we get.
I don’t understand not giving Stalberg a shift during 4 on 4 in overtime. I’m not saying start him or play him ahead of a shift for 19/88/10/81 but halfway through the period get him out there against tired legs and tell him to try and motor past some people. I don’t get it.
I made this joke last year, but it works again: the Hawks understand the Lady Byng trophy isn’t a team award, right?
re: Lady Byng comment
not really looking forward to tonight.
John Scott will dress, so let’s get it out of our system now.
We like our people!
Scott
I’m done tearing my hair out over it. As awful as he routinely looks, there’s no evidence I can see that he’s actually hurting the team when he plays this year, at least defensively. In fact, he’s actually been making good passes out of the Hawks’ end when he manages to chase down the puck.
So whatever.
Author of The Cubs Transaction Report
What does that say about our team D
when there’s no evidence that Scott is actually hurting the team when he plays on D?
Thank you, sir! May I have another?
I'm actually looking forward to Mayer
being on the ice if any of the typical bad shit starts – which, knowing the Blues, it will begin immediately. No more of that taking our guy’s knees out when given the chance, please – and no more beheadings in the corners, either.
"Last night Kane was right back to his ole bullshit in all three zones. He was phoning it in."
…he ain’t the only one…
H'8ter Proof™
Phoning it in in all three zones?
Maybe in the defensive zone, but he had two beautiful assists on two go-ahead goals and was pretty active all night.
"I have only space enough to add: against the assault of desperate pandas nothing can stand."
-ChicoMaki (channeling Mark Twain)
by HungryHungryPanda on Dec 3, 2011 11:49 AM CST up reply actions
Good point
I should have been more careful with my words. His aggressiveness and tenacity was lacking over previous efforts this season.
Here's hoping we can string some wins together; when will Detroit realize they have one foot in the grave?
"Showin' her my Toews-face!"
Perhaps I'm imagining it, but it seems to me they get up for the tougher competition
Look at the way they played against San Jose and Vancouver. This leads me to think that a large part of the problem is in their mental preparation for a game. How often have we seen them get a lead on a weak team and try to phone it in the rest of the way (as contrasted by games against tougher opponents, where they stayed aggressive and smart in the 3rd?). I don’t have any evidence to back this up, it’s just a causal observation, and we know how worthless those are. But if there’s anything to it, it’s a disturbing trend, and a team trend at that. Wasn’t all the veteran leadership we traded for supposed to help with that?
I agree to a point about Campbell, though I think the point is made in a overly dramatic fashion. I’m more concerned about competitive attitude, and the Hawks only have it about one game in three right now.
I plan to live forever, or die trying.
by Sparky The Barbarian on Dec 3, 2011 11:40 AM CST reply actions
They seem to have trended this way way even in the Dark Years.
Seems like they could always get up for the tougher teams but not the ‘lesser’ ones. Frustrating. Gotta figure in the fact the Hawks are one of the tougher teams now too, so other teams dig a little deeper.
"Showin' her my Toews-face!"
oh really...?
I don’t have any evidence to back this up, it’s just a causal observation, and we know how worthless those are.
Author of The Cubs Transaction Report
You're not imagining it, but we're not alone
Most teams in most sports have this problem. You have to remember that when we play weaker teams, those teams are, in turn, playing a stronger team. Yeah, maybe we play a bit down to the competition, but it’s not a one-way door – they are also playing up to their competition.
We may complain about Crow’s %, or Keith’s ice time, but we’re still a high-quality team with a cup win (no, Vancouver – a real cup) in the last 2 seasons. We’re a feather in the cap for any shitty team.
the talnet is there for sure
But spmething is missing. It is chemistry or heart/desire or perhaps both. The numbers just do not make sense.
by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Dec 3, 2011 1:06 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
This is far too broad to explain away all the problems
But I think part of the problem is not that we’re a noticeably different team than in recent years, but rather that the game itself is changing a bit. Ours is a team built for speed and finesse, but infractions such as holding, hooking, and (especially) interference are not being called as regularly now as they were in 2010. The league is slowly becoming more physical, which favors teams like Boston over teams like Chicago.
We think: “Oh no! We lost Campbell – how can we replace what he did for us last year?” We should be thinking: “Oh no! We lost Campbell – how can we fill his empty roster spot with what we need this year?”
So, not Leddy/Monty/Lepisto/SOD?
I know hits aren’t a terribly reliable stat, but didn’t we lose our two biggest hitters two years ago (Buff and Ladd) and never really replace them?
yeah...
Well certainly, I wasn’t really considering that there might be stats to back up alternate claims. Do people do that on here or something? Seriously, though – that’s a good point, and one that I had in my head, but reading my posts, apparently put nary a word to print.
I guess the actual point I was trying to make (feebly) was that talent is great, but only if it matches the game. If we added Bobby Fischer to the roster, we’d one of the most talented players ever, but that wouldn’t help us that much in a hockey game.
Trying to replicate the skills we had on the 2009-2010 roster might be a better idea than say, the skills on a 2002-2003 roster, but still doesn’t address the needs of 2011-2012.
Obviously, Crawford needs to be better. Obviously, our PK needs to be better. But that doesn’t address the broader issue. The team with the most speed and finesse doesn’t win in a boxing match. That doesn’t mean we need to blow up the team, but a change in philosophy might help.
This is an extreme example, but you look at the success of the Wings and Stars when their elite forwards (specifically Yzerman and Modano) were asked to play more defensively. Sure, their offensive production went down, and at times fans wondered why the mgmt would waste that talent. But it was a defensive league at the time, and elite players (read: Toews, Kane, Hossa, Keith, etc, etc.) are usually good enough in all areas to adapt to what is needed. Those 2 players changed their (already incredible individual) style to great team success.
2010 was great – I wish every year were like that. But it’s not the same league anymore – we shouldn’t be trying to field the same team, and we especially shouldn’t be trying to field a softer team when the league is going in the opposite direction.
partly agree
the physical element is exactly what was being touted with Carcillo, Montador, Mayers. I thought it would work, but I can’t say that it has, and in any case the current D problems are more numerous and varied. More hitting would certainly be a welcome step though
If graffiti changed anything it would be illegal
I'm not sure how often they're making an impact
Carcillo’s hitting doesn’t seem to generate much (how often is he separating someone from the puck with it?), and Monty and Mayers aren’t seeing enough ice time for their physicality to make much of a difference.
Maybe...
I’m not really advocating fighting fire with fire, per se. I don’t think we just need to add more 4th line hitters (Carcillo, et al). I guess I’d like just to see our current players adapt their style of play a bit – be more defensively responsible as a team, and take advantage of the offensive opportunities when they come.
It’s easy when you have Keith and Seabs to sit back and say “they got this” and then leave them stranded expecting an automatic takeaway and 100 foot tape-to-tape pass. I’d rather see our current players be more inclined to out-muscle the puck away from the opposition rather than padding the hit stats.
Until or unless a trade is made
that is what it is gonna take for this team to become defensively sound. The forwards are gonna’ have to contribute as much to the D as they are to scoring and you’re right, it doesn’t have to be hitting but they at least need to have their sticks active and to be pestering the shit out of the opposition every time they touch the puck..
I’m not saying that they aren’t playing D at all, it just seems like they play it for a little while and then they back off.
No worries, this was the plan all along!
if that's the case they better start hitting tonight
seriously, any weaknesses in a physical sense will be exposed via the goons from St. Louiee.
I can't see
how they can play such a technically sound D game as they did in SJ and LA and then come back and drop to shitters on the next 2 games.
No worries, this was the plan all along!
the talnet is there for sure
But spmething is missing. It is chemistry or heart/desire or perhaps both. The numbers just do not make sense.
by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Dec 3, 2011 1:06 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
don't know if this is an anti-waylon
but it’s gotta be something
If graffiti changed anything it would be illegal
Careful Observation
Careful observation can be more valuable than hard numbers if one is a student of the game.
Metrics don’t measure everything, and can actually produce false positives (and false negatives for that matter). Natural human bias also has a tendency to burn the statistical validity candle from both ends.
A team game as chaotic and fast as hockey contains many intangible factors that are difficult to measure.
A disciplined blend of the eye-test and metrics is ideal, but at times one is more useful than the other. Context is everthing.
I think we are in for a fun one tonight, ladies and gents.
The legs feed the wolf.
by Second City Southpaw on Dec 3, 2011 2:47 PM CST up reply actions
The last 3 years I have noticed a few things.
Passing consistency, defensive play behind the net are issues with the Hawks. I think we work on these 2 things and we got it.
When I decide to change my personality I will let you know what I become.
by Blackhawks Transplant on Dec 3, 2011 12:00 PM CST reply actions
Good for Martin as Vigneault and Julien have had more success leaving Montreal. Even Therrien reached the Finals once he got exiled out of there.
Proud fan of the 2010 Stanley Cup Champion Chicago Blackhawks and the 2010 Super Bowl Champion Green Bay Packers.
"You cannot dream yourself into a character; you must hammer and forge yourself into one."
does anybody know where I can dowload
The NHL game summary and event sheets from in bulk or by team and not game by game?
by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Dec 3, 2011 1:03 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Do you know how to run programs in DOS?
I can send you a Python script that does this… all you have to do is install Python (there’s an installer so it should be easy), and feed my program a list of game IDs you want.
I can learn to run it
It is probably about time I move onto the next level of this stuff. Straight excel is fine, but for as in depth as I am getting into stat breakdowns, I need more versatility.
If you could email it to me that would be great!
by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Dec 3, 2011 1:36 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Sure I'll send you the program w/instructions sometime tonight
Unless you let me know otherwise I’ll use the email in your profile…
that email is just fine
Thanks!!!
by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Dec 3, 2011 1:45 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Ooo! Ooo! Mr Kotter! Mr Kotter!
Can you please send me a copy too?
by ChicagoNativeSon on Dec 3, 2011 5:32 PM CST up reply actions
As far as the goaltending goes...
I think Stan is the only one that can fix this and the answer may lie in Buffalo with an very unhappy Ryan Miller.
What the cost may be? It would have to start with Hjalmarsson and Frolik but that is just an assumption on my part, but at the end of the day this is a trade that would make more sense for Chicago than any trade involving Bobby Ryan.
Bobby Ryan would be a great addition and is something as ’Hawks fans we would want, but Miller is something we need.
Proud fan of the 2010 Stanley Cup Champion Chicago Blackhawks and the 2010 Super Bowl Champion Green Bay Packers.
"You cannot dream yourself into a character; you must hammer and forge yourself into one."
Millers cap hit is at $6.5mil for until 2014
Even if we were to get him, we’d still be missing a forward/Dman
But it's AHRM!
Uh, we had a slight weapons malfunction, but uh... everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here now, thank you. How are you?
by The Cup And Back Again on Dec 3, 2011 5:08 PM CST up reply actions
Frolik isn’t doing much anywhere lately so he’d be no loss and as for Hjalmarsson, he’s been better than most give him credit for and would be a loss no doubt but I believe Buffalo would want a young defenceman in return. But, there are a plenty of options around the league that could replace Hjalmarsson and for a much cheaper price.
Proud fan of the 2010 Stanley Cup Champion Chicago Blackhawks and the 2010 Super Bowl Champion Green Bay Packers.
"You cannot dream yourself into a character; you must hammer and forge yourself into one."
With Olesz on waivers, we have just over $5.5mil in cap space, trading Hjammer and Frolik to another team would give us another $5.83 mil, resulting in $11.33mil of space. While we could get Miller for $6.25, that would leave us with just over $4 mil, which I’m not sure would get us the other players we definitely need.
Though Miller’s had a down year, I don’t think Buffalo’s going to be shipping him off sometime; he did win the Vezina fairly recently, he’s got the whole American Hero thing too. They also made the playoffs last year, so they’re not hurting too badly to warrant some complete restructuring such as Calgary.
Speaking of Calgary
I just read that Sarich requested a trade
No worries, this was the plan all along!
A quick google search brings up this
Apparently, that was just hear-say. He says he’d rather stay.
different feeds
There’s some great analysis here today (CNS in particular) but there’s one major way the Hawks are failing at present and that is the realm of hustle.
In many (not all) cases, they are being outworked and there are times it is actually chilling to watch opponents just flat out win battles to loose pucks. Suddenly, the Hawks seem old(er) and slow(er).
The one key question I have is how pervasive this is. They are loaded with talent, of course. And I know in years past the team struggled with barely being able to give a shit on certain nights and I understand that is part of hockey. But the way opponents are routinely able to win battles and cover more ground because they are skating (with and without the puck) with a purpose is alarming to say the least.
Something’s obviously been wrong for a few weeks here. It’s been funny to be shouted down by the people who view criticism as premature pants-shitting, but after last night, if you don’t concede that there are deep flaws with the Hawks game @ present, then we must be watching different feeds.
It looks like they've exorcized their dragons.
by Gus Savage on Dec 3, 2011 3:53 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Right On
When I decide to change my personality I will let you know what I become.
by Blackhawks Transplant on Dec 3, 2011 4:41 PM CST up reply actions
Unfortunately, hyperbole tends to carry the day around here.
I don’t think anyone in here thinks things are hunky dory. I happen to drink beer on the table with those who think we should pass extreme judgement after a few more rounds. If Stanbo can sign someone that crystallizes our defense or a top 6 forward we so obviously need, great. Our playoff picture will look more solid. Until then, we have a team that appears to be somewhat streaky but also capable of making it to the post-season, which means we are better than 45% the teams in the league.
Maybe it's booze, maybe it's glue, maybe it's gasoline. Maybe it's a gunshot to the head. But something. Something to relieve the pressures of their everyday life, like having to tie their shoes.
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