Warming Up To Carbomb
by SamFels on Jul 5, 2011 1:05 PM CDT
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PrintIt's odd, I should be writing far more "I was wrong" posts than I do, considering the rate at which i whiff at the plate of logic and correctness. Maybe that's something we'll aim to do more this season.
When doing this, even though it's supposed to be a voice of the fan and not a journalistic type endeavor, you at times do have to leave your passions out of it. Or at least greatly reduce them. I didn't do that when news of the Dan Carcillo signing broke. To me at the time, he was still the guy who my father referred to as "that evil little thing on the Flyers" and who greatly annoyed us during the '10 Final. He was that grinning dope who ran around and was basically a smaller Cam Janssen.
But he isn't, is he? After actually looking something up (weird, I know), taking a couple days to reflect and enjoy the holiday, and of course a thoroughly logical and sober post today over at The Fifth Feather (as is their infuriating yet genius way), I'm warming up to Carcillo in the red and black. Slowly.
First of all, he hardly costs anything. A one year deal for less than a mildo? Whatever. Secondly, as I looked more and more on it, Carcillo is an actually annoying and actually somewhat skilled Adam Burish, who was really neither. Carcillo genuinely does get a rise out of opponents, and has two 10-goal seasons to his name. It's such a huge lift for a team like the Hawks when their 4th line can take a regular shift, create energy, and chip in goals. Fourth line goals always seem to be big ones, and give the building and team a jump. If it is indeed Carcillo and Smith on the 4th line, the Hawks will get that a lot.
Another thing I got wrong is the scripted fights I thought we would be treated to more regularly. I find nothing more stupid than one team's goon fights another simply because they're on the ice at the same time and can't really figure out what to do with that curved wood they're holding (by crackee!). That sort of encounter does nothing to benefit either team, doesn't protect anybody, doesn't intimidate anybody, and about the only good it does is keep those goofs off the ice for five minutes. While Scott turning Westgarth's face into endangered wetland (by crackee!) was good for the comedy, did it really serve any other purpose?
Carbomb doesn't do that. Judging from his fight card on Hockey Fights.com, of his 13 scraps last year only bouts with Zenon Konopka and Brandon Prust would be considered tussles with droolers. Perhaps it's because Carcillo isn't all that big.
And having bemoaned at times the Hawks lack of snarl, I can't have it both ways when they try and address it. It might not always be in the way we want, but Carcillo makes the Hawks harder to play against. I can't argue against that. As the Feather said, opponents during the pregame meeting will have to take a second to say, "Don't let Carcillo's crap get in your way." That's not a bad thing.
While not over the moon still, i get it. And am starting to warm up to it.
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Just one stat but:
Carcillo’s Penalties Drawn to Penalties taken ratio is 1.5/1.6
Eager is a .8/1.5 and Burish is .9/1.1
Maybe it’s mid summers optimism, but I’m on board with this
Bravo.
Also keep in mind, the added benefit of him taking John Scott’s role. Q has no excuse to play Scott now.
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
not even in your wildiest dreams
should you think Carcillo takes the place of Scott. Scott is a thug that can’t skate. He takes on the other teams goon and beats the crap out of him. He tried to play defense. Carcillo is a little guy who fights other little guys. He can skate and make plays. The only thing is he doesn’t have control over himself. I am a hawk fan relocated to Philly for the past few years (at game 6 baby to see the last game too). I hope he can keep his head on straight but I’m betting he won’t. Hope he proves me wrong.
Uhh...was the role they had imagined for Scott not extremely similar to the role they have Carcillo set up for?
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
One a defensivemen that can't skate and can whip goons
the other is a forward that can skate and only fights the smaller guys. They are in no way similar. First of Scott is a stiff and I’m not high on him. The thing is, he can’t skate. He likes to be paid like a hockey player and so he uses his one and only skill. I don’t blame him at all. If I could make $500,000 and could whip up on folks, I’d do it too. Carcillo can skate. He could be OK but he decided that he’d rather intimadate than use those skills. I hope he works out but I wouldn’t bet on him.
There’s not much I like better than 4th line goals.
How to leave alone what's doing fine! How to mulch what's dying on the vine!
♥
Hopefully Carbomb Carcillo and Ben "Tank" Smith will provide a lot of that
"What is icing?"
"Well, uh... icing appen when uh the puck come down... bang, you know, before the other guys, nobody there, you know. My arm go comme ça then the game stop then start up."
by anActiveStick on Jul 5, 2011 1:22 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Since we've got a bunch of beer nerds here
I think Stout should be his nickname. We’ve already used it as an adjective for him. Fits perfectly.
Templeton Rye'd the Lightning.
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Jul 5, 2011 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions
we need an irish guy on the 4th line.
Irish/Stout/Carbomb.
I suppose the first two are ingredients in the 2nd, but i don’t care.
Smith/?/Carcillo = the irish carbomb.
He's Scottish
You can tell by the spelling.
Lead writer for BlackhawkUp. Follow me on Twitter. God help us all...
by ChicagoNativeSon on Jul 5, 2011 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah
He actually comes from near where I am, funnily enough.
Because a blog of alcoholics just isn't complete without a Scot.
...I forget the rest, but your mother's a whore.
So Steve Smith and Mayers
any other Scots make it to the NHL?
The fourth dimension will collapse in upon itself, bitch.
None born in the last 50 years, no
Incomplete list here. Doesn’t feature Mayers or Smith, for some reason.
Because a blog of alcoholics just isn't complete without a Scot.
...I forget the rest, but your mother's a whore.
I saw a house hunters last night
This couple was moving from Bermuda to Glasgow. I couldn’t understand anything they said.
Haha, don't blame you
Sometimes it’s hard for me to keep up.
Because a blog of alcoholics just isn't complete without a Scot.
...I forget the rest, but your mother's a whore.
Nice avatar
that was my Halloween costume one year whilst in college.
The fourth dimension will collapse in upon itself, bitch.
I thought Fireplug was the final choice
But Stout works quite well.
Another silver lining
Considering the overall toughness added last week – Scott could very well be part of any package offered for a Dubinsky or Callahan.
The Rangers always seem to carry one DH/goon – and w the Boogard tragedy may have need.
Slats will certainly want to protect his new $60M toy, that's for damn sure.
Hadn’t thought about that angle.
Second City Hockey
It's a bird, it's a plane, it's a goddamn shame
Doesn't Prust do that kind of stuff for them?
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
sort of, but not really
remember, when the Flyers signed Jody Shelly last summer Sather responded immediately by giving the Boogeyman a 4 year deal with a $1.625 million cap hit to come in and play 4 minutes a night, max, and take care of any needed goonery. If that’s the kind of protection that Sather wants, Scott is even bigger and way cheaper so adding him to any trade package to attempt to bring in Dubinsky or Callahan may actually help.
by FrankStallone on Jul 5, 2011 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions
I would love this so much.
Templeton Rye'd the Lightning.
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Jul 5, 2011 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Another Carcillo analysis
Did my own analysis of the Carcillo pickup this weekend (7/3) – post at http://www.hockeybroad.com/2011/07/surprise-signing-of-dan-carcillo-to.html
Pluses: he’s cheap; it’s just 1 year; he’s well-known as “an energy guy”; other teams can’t stand him; he can actually score goals when he stays focused; he can handle the puck. He sucks less than people think he does, because they’re so busy being irritated by him. Bolland PLUS another hardcore irritant on the team? Say ‘yes please’ to that.
Cons: He’s been labeled “dirty”, a “cheap shot artist”, and a “diver”. While Fourth Feather analyzed his 2011-12 year, they didn’t talk about ALL his penalties and suspensions, and the dude has had some beauties. (Not the least of which is the off-ice smack talk to a ref, which led to a four-game suspension which carries into the first 2 games of this year. Uhm, yay?)
The main reason it’s an issue if Carcillo doesn’t continue to improve his PIM: the Blackhawks had their worst PK average since 1997 last season. (If the streak goes back further than that, I don’t know – NHL.com’s records only went back to 1997-98 season.) How bad was it? A 79.2% full season PK average. That statistic needs to vastly improve this year. Hey, even with that nauseating statistic, the Hawks still won enough games for 97 points. But 97 points just isn’t a good enough guarantee to make the playoffs; not in the West.
My initial reaction to this signing, like most others was “omfg you have to be kidding me no way”. But the more I looked into it, the more I found appealing.
Still, not exactly running out to buy a Carcillo shirsey. Let’s see what he does with the team and now he actually looks on the ice. I think if there’s anybody to get the good production out of him and get him to more gracefully walk that line between agitator and idiot, it’d be Coach Q & Co.
www.hockeybroad.com - Just because I'm female, doesn't mean I want my sports gear to be pink.
Carcillo won’t be killing penalties.
Second City Hockey
It's a bird, it's a plane, it's a goddamn shame
also,
I believe of his 127 PIM last season, only 32 of those minutes were penalties which might have left his team shorthanded (not discounting off-setting minor situations).
In comparison, Kopecky had 60 PIM last season, all minors.
No way, Carcillo won't be on the PK?
Because he’d be in the box.
Let’s hope his record of decreasing PIM year by year continues to trend downwards. Team doesn’t need a Boynton replacement.
www.hockeybroad.com - Just because I'm female, doesn't mean I want my sports gear to be pink.
FFS
Last season, the guy caused less than half the shorthanded situations for his team that kopecky did for the hawks.
Won't...
Carcillo kinda force us to carry another forward on the roster which also limits roster flexibility? If he’s consistently in the sin bin, we’ll have to carry a replacement for him to skate on the 4th line. Or even worse force a 3rd line or 2nd line guy to take a longer shift, which over the course of the season probably is going to take a toll. I’m okay with it, it’s one year but I can’t stand the fucker… My most vivid memory of Carcillo is seen below… poor Jeff Carter..
/facepalm
Go read the Fifth Feather story…..he is not constantly in the sin bin.
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
127 minutes
is a lot, granted a lot of them were 5 for fighting which doesn’t leave the team short handed per se; however, does remove him from the ice for a while.
Once again, read the story.
13 fights and 3 10 minute misconducts all at the end of Flyer’s blowout victories. Did not hurt the team. Draws more than he takes.
Its a wash.
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
Here is the relevant text
Of those 127 penalty minutes, Carcillo was involved in 13 fights (courtesy of hockeyfights.com) and had three ten minute misconducts. The three ten minute misconducts all came at the end of Flyer blowout wins. So right off the bat, that’s 95 penalty minutes you can take right off the board. The reason why is because none of those penalty minutes really hurt the Flyers.
That leaves another 32 minutes in penalties, or just 16 penalty violations.
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
yeah, but we are still talking about a 4th liner....
….those minutes are not as hard to replace as you might think. I am sure you remember Scott being replaced for 59 of them in the playoffs a few months ago and he did not even have to take a penalty to do it.
The less a man makes declarative statements, the less apt he is to look foolish in retrospect.
and in the playoffs that's OK.
but I’d rather be as healthy and warm for the playoffs as possible. and if your 4th line plays a bit more the grind on the first 3 lines isn’t as severe. That said, you’re probably right.
the minutes are not hard to replace but extending the minutes of the other players
is taxing. Our top guys were gassed by the end of the season. Constantly having to doubleshift to both generate something and also to cover the minutes of another player took its toll.
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be. - Douglas Adams
The point misses the point though......he really doesn't take a lot of penalties that aren't coincidental.
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
Even if they're not coincidental
thea team has two options.
Carry an extra forward ($$$ cap hit)
Force other people to double shift (Grind on other players)
Ignoring that seems foolish.
you're still wrong
as far as carrying any extra forwards, according to capgeek the ‘Hawks already have 12 forwards signed with 3 RFA’s still waiting in the wings. It’s not going to be the final line-up as there are still going to be signings and/or trades as well as players capgeek has listed as being with the ‘Hawks that might end up starting the season in Rockford (i.e. Kruger, Smith, and/or Olesz) and guys listed as being in Rockford that might end up on the ’Hawks opening day roster (like Morin). Either way there was never a chance in hell of the ’Hawks entering the season without at least 1 or 2 extra forwards that often end up being healthy scratches. Not that it makes a difference, though, because it’s not like you can trot out one of those healthy scratches if one of the guys you suited up for the game gets a penalty or gets tossed. And as far as forcing other skaters to double shift, hello that’s what happens when you get a penalty, it’s not the end of the world for the PK guys to get a little work so long as our PK is better than it was last year (and it should be with the additions of Montador and SOB on the back end), and if it’s a coincidental then the effect of getting a player more important to his team off the ice as well more than makes up for the extra 2 minutes that have to be split among 3 other guys in that spot. In the end, what it boils down to is that you’re literally making shit up to complain about.
by FrankStallone on Jul 5, 2011 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions
okay
In terms of cap management I’d rather split 64 million 22 ways than 23. But a fair enough point. I don’t think he’s a net negative but I think glossing over it is shortsighted.
i have to check, but I belive each NHL roster has to have 23 rostered players at minimum.
….I think.
The less a man makes declarative statements, the less apt he is to look foolish in retrospect.
I thought you could carry as few as 20
that leaves you with the 12 forwards 6 dmen and 2 goalies that you can dress
okay...23 is a MAX...
But most teams carry the max in order to accommodate illness and injury and also for roster flexibility. Carrying 20 players and spending the cap would allow teams to split more money between fewer players, but there is no prize for that.
The less a man makes declarative statements, the less apt he is to look foolish in retrospect.
taking penalties during a game does require an extra forward to be carried
you can only dress 18 skaters for a game – if someone takes a penalty, you can’t have the press box guy lace them up mid-game.
Fighting stupidity since 1958 (it's taking longer than anticipated)
Confusion will be my epitaph.
It needs more cowbell.
If you consider Jamal Mayers and Carcillo one person
then it might be OK and the Jamal Carcillo combo only costs 1.3 mil or so. in cap hit. But you need to carry an extra person in case he gets into a fight or gets a game misconduct. If he can’t play someone has to take his place on the ice or more detrimentally, your top 6 double shifts.
I do not understand this....
You cannot replace a player that is not dressed for a player that gets into a fight or gets a game misconduct. If he gets suspended you cannot replace that player on your roster and his salary still counts against the cap, so that argument would apply, but it’s hardly a contingency any GM would base a signing on in my opinion.
The less a man makes declarative statements, the less apt he is to look foolish in retrospect.
Overserved is right - you only dress 18 skaters for a game
and you can’t add to them mid-game
Fighting stupidity since 1958 (it's taking longer than anticipated)
Confusion will be my epitaph.
It needs more cowbell.
But, but,
what if one of them fouls out??
Lead writer for BlackhawkUp. Follow me on Twitter. God help us all...
by ChicagoNativeSon on Jul 6, 2011 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions
then you can only replace him
if you’re willing to give the other team 2 free throws for any and all ensuing fouls
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 6, 2011 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions
yes, Hawks should have players like
Ben Smith
Evan Brophey
Ryan Potulny
Jeff Taffe
Brandon Pirri
and Rob Klinkhammer because they don’t take penalties, thus saving the top 6 from extra shifts. Of course they don’t do much else either as there is a whopping 1G 0A in the group
On board with Team Live Bad Ass
I'm not getting why player options...
have to be the ones you chose. That’s just silly.
Carcillo is not the only avenue the team could have explored, but that’s besides the point. He’s signed and loaded.
Because those are the ones that are under contract to the 'Hawks
or were last season
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 5, 2011 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Ben Smith scored more goals in 7 playoff games than Carcillo did in an entire season. So whatever. Stupid discussion anyway.
Carcillo is a Hawk. I think it’s a bad signing, but hopefully he’ll not be a douchefuck, play some defense and be an asset on our team.
I like Ben Smith a lot
his poise in the playoffs as a rookie really impressed me. I was merely trying to answer your question as to why those were the only options that Johnny Lava listed
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 5, 2011 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Discounting Playoffs?
Wasn’t Smith a bit of a lightning rod during the post-season?
Curator of Dark Side of the Five Hole
I like our guys, especially these guys.
even if you're not on the PK
you still have other players having to play extra to eat up the minutes he (or anyone) is off the ice. Scott played 5 mins a night – not because he was (always) given a misconduct or penalty, but because those were the only minutes Q put him out for. That means the other guys had to eat that time up, and as I said, the top guys were gassed by the end of the year and I’m assuming this contributed. We may not have that problem with Carcillo, which is fantastic, I’m (and maybe 2883 as well) just respond to:
yeah, but we are still talking about a 4th liner…. ….those minutes are not as hard to replace as you might think. I am sure you remember Scott being replaced for 59 of them in the playoffs a few months ago and he did not even have to take a penalty to do it.
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be. - Douglas Adams
I do not understand your cap-hit / carry an forward argument....
…each team dresses 2 goalies per game and 18 skaters. Every team takes penalties and the other players take up his slack when that happens. Cap hit has nothing to do with it.
The less a man makes declarative statements, the less apt he is to look foolish in retrospect.
Assuming this is a reply fail? I've never brought up cap hit
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be. - Douglas Adams
you kinda lumped 2883 in there with ya...sorry...
he mentioned the cap hit argument.
The less a man makes declarative statements, the less apt he is to look foolish in retrospect.
ok i figured but wanted to make sure
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be. - Douglas Adams
i meant to say "carry an extra forward" argument...
The less a man makes declarative statements, the less apt he is to look foolish in retrospect.
I didn't say we needed to carry an extra forward either, and I don't expect to
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be. - Douglas Adams
it is simply not a significant quantity of minutes.
Following the analysis in the fifth feather article….
You do not have to worry about covering the shifts of a player that gets assessed 90 minutes of basically meaningless penalty time cause the penalty occurred at the end of the game or were fighting majors.
This also occurs with every teams high energy banger / grinder type players. They will take their share of stupid penalties and we will have the opportunity to cash in on those chances. However, as I have stated in other posts here and as Sam stated in his post above Carcillo is not someone that other teams can afford to overlook, and every minute spent thinking about what Carbomb is up to is a minute they are not thinking about executing their game plan. Stuff like that does not show up on the stat sheet, but pays dividends nonetheless and helps to offset some of the nonsense Carcillo does partake in.
The less a man makes declarative statements, the less apt he is to look foolish in retrospect.
Yeah... That is 95 PIMs right there for the fights/10 Min GMs.
All of a sudden, the 127 doesn’t seem so bad for a guy that played 57 games last season.
Second City Hockey's resident arrogant poster.
You can usually tell early in the game
and it depends on how the other team handles him. Sometimes he seems to bug the shit out of them, sometimes not, and sometimes he’s off the handle from the faceoff and you hope the coach stuffs him in the equipment bag.
You notice his stupid minors early in the game because he’s the bad kid so you have the expectation and it pisses you off.
From time to time he shows real talent in the offensive zone.
On balance I’m glad he’s gone. But certainly more valuable than Boynton, or Scott (though not quite the same role as Scott).
Mainly, though, I’m laughing my Flyer ass off at all the revisionist history going on here now that he is wearing your uniform.
Ah, fandom.
by flyersfaninchicago on Jul 5, 2011 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions
addenda
- maybe he’s better able to regulate his own temperature if he’s not playing for the team with the history of villainous behavior. He’s just the agitator, not “the Flyers’ agitator.”
- He does fill a need. Hawks didn’t have enough blackflies last year.
by flyersfaninchicago on Jul 5, 2011 7:14 PM CDT up reply actions
your first point might carry more weight
had he not been the exact same player when he started his career in Phoenix.
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 6, 2011 8:17 AM CDT up reply actions
yeah
after looking at about 20 minutes of Carcillo video yesterday, much of it with the Coyotes and some of it from the links here, i agree with you. From what I saw he’s actually calmed down quite a bit in the last couple of years. So no Flyer logo effect.
by flyersfaninchicago on Jul 6, 2011 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
re: revisionist history
whatever makes us feel better with the choices we cannot control! ;P
SCH Narc - check yo'self before you wreck yo'self.
Exactly.
We didn’t get to choose the moderators, and in hindsight, Ahn isn’t so bad afterall!
;)
Second City Hockey's resident arrogant poster.
This:
On balance I’m glad he’s gone.
I’m not glad he’s a Blackhawk and I’m sure most of us will have the same sentiment as you this time next summer.
Thank you, sir! May I have another?
Hawk fan moved to Philly
I share the feeling that Carcillo can really play but you just never know what you get. That’s why he played so many less games last year.
Flyers dressed him 57 yimes last year
with 6 points. The prior year he was in 76 games. Ask yourself why. I think too many of you guys are looking for a silver lining in a very black cloud.
Do you suppose that we have much choice?
He’s on our team. We’re allowed to hope that the change in scenery and coaching staff will have a positive impact on our team.
We’re certainly not going to go “Oh noez. We have carcilloz. We R doomed.”
Second City Hockey's resident arrogant poster.
Chicago did the same with Rodman
he was a f——ing Piston and came to the Bulls and everybody loved him. Carcillo is different in the fact that he does have a complete game and he really can play, but I’ve seen his act for many years now. I do hope he has a different point of view since the Flyers stopped using him as much as they did. Maybe it helped his head. I am hoping he works out too because he’s cheap and he does have talent.
Well apparently Danny Boy is gonna try to reign it in a bit this year
by putmeinthemadhouse on Jul 5, 2011 1:59 PM CDT reply actions
well if he wants any ice time he's going to have to
Don’t think Q will stand for those shenanigans.
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be. - Douglas Adams
I've been amazed by
the vitriol directed to this deal, and applaud you for taking a second look.
For God’s sake, people, we freakin’ LOVED Probie in the Indianhead sweater, I’m pretty sure I can at least tolerate Carbomb.
Only two questions matter: does he help your team more than he hurts it? I can’t see how you answer that “no” when it comes to this guy at his price.
An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. (Jef Mallett)
what's the 2nd question that matters?
I agree with your answer to the first question, I think Carcillo should help more than he hurts ESPECIALLY at $775K for 1 year, but you’ve left me quite confused as to what your second important question to consider might be..,
by FrankStallone on Jul 5, 2011 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Very rusty on the posting thing, I am . . .
2nd question is: what’s the likelihood he embarrasses your organ-I-zation off the ice? An admittedly cursory google search turns up no wife-beating, dog-kicking, waitress-stiffing kind of stuff; all his violence seems to take place on the ice.
An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. (Jef Mallett)
well there were his gross tweets...
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be. - Douglas Adams
Yes, which I believe got him in some serious shit with Philly's front office
and I’m fairly certain (although I could be wrong) that he deleted his twitter account.
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 5, 2011 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions
However, there is a hilarious fake Twitter account.
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
I'd heard that, but I'm way too lazy to actually try to find it
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 5, 2011 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Thankfully, the Hawks have no one who does embarrassing things off the ice....
Cough (Kane) cough, cough.
Thank you Boston for saving us from a dreadful summer! Now, GO HAWKS!!!
"Jeez, I don't know
We can get Carcillo for under a mil or we can just play John Scott as a forward. What do you think Joel?"
“Stan, I’m going to kick your fucking ass through the top of your fucking head if you make me play John Scott at forward for even one fucking shift next season.”
“OK then, you asked for it, you got it.”
“Do I fucking have to do everything? Next your gonna let Havi go and tell me Kitch can get it done. Fuck me”
by laaarmer on Jul 5, 2011 2:59 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I'd rather have havi doing the midas touch on the PK than on the PP next year.
If he can only do one.
Talent and strategy, not cheap, wins Stanley Cups
Someone explain Carcillo’s 6 points, -14 (worst on the Flyers) and 127 penalty minutes (tied for 2nd on the team) last year in 57 games. I still think this guy is a nightmare. What’s most disturbing to me is that the Hawks seem to be moving away from the 2009-2010 model (stay out of the penalty box and win with speed) to a new model that seems to indicate that penalties and slow big guys can win games. Why the change in strategy?
It was more like 36 penalty minutes.
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
The article which Sam's whole post is based on explains why that number is so inflated and why its not nearly as bad as it looks.
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
Read the fine print.
191 one of those minutes were fighting/misconducts which didn’t put the team short handed.
by putmeinthemadhouse on Jul 5, 2011 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions
127 PIM
95 of which are for misconducts or fighting – penalty minutes which do not negatively impact the team. They do not result in the team being short-handed, and do not result in a PK in any form.
so Carcillo had 32 PIM which result from minors and may have potentially resulted in short-handed situations, but those 32 PIMs do not discount those which occurred at the end of games or were offset.
Also his PIM taken vs PIM drawn is a near wash.
He allegedly creates plenty of 4 v 4 situations.
I like these notions.
Second City Hockey's resident arrogant poster.
please read more, like the whole article and the other comments responding to you
Yes, the grand total was 127. However, he had 13 fighting majors (and only 2 of those were against actual meatballs Zonopka and Prust which means that the other ones were against players whose absence actually hurt their team) and he also had 3 ten minute misconducts that all came at the ends of Flyers blowout wins. That means that of those 127 PIM’s, 95 didn’t actually shorthand his team and only the 32 PIM’s from his 16 minor penalties really matter here. How many people have to tell you the same information? You’re probably the same guy that still thinks John Scott is going to be the next Zdeno Chara just because they’re nearly the same size.
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 5, 2011 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Reading is a skill
Compare that to Kopecky’s 60 PIMs, all minors.
Second City Hockey
It's a bird, it's a plane, it's a goddamn shame
but 60 is less than 127
and it’s WAAAY more fun to just look at that and completely ignore the context that something like 95 of those PIMs were either fights or were misconducts at the end of blowout wins that can basically be disregarded.
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 5, 2011 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions
maybe the 2009-10 team could have got by with overwhelming skill
but they did have Ladd, Buff, Eager, and Sopel, and none of that size was replaced last year, unless you count John Scott.
We like our people!
Yea were realling moving away from that game model
Because we added some toughness and a couple big guys. Mayers can skate. Carcillo can skate. Montador can skate relatviely well. O’donnel is a big brute. Brunette isn’t the best skater. Our core is going to play like they always have, these few acquisitions take nothing away from the speed game but add some weight to the back end.
You are being far to hyperbolic in your viewpoint as these “slow big guys” will not be playing major minutes.
by putmeinthemadhouse on Jul 5, 2011 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Perhaps you've heard of Buff, Madden and Sopel
None were exactly fleet of foot, and Madden and Sopel were slow as molasses out there – did you actually watch the playoffs that year?
OK, I understand why it's 36 penalty minutes now, thanks
But there’s still the -14 and 6 points
Not sure if this was in the weekend thread but
Ladd signed with the Jets for supposedly 5yrs $22M
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be. - Douglas Adams
Kaberle decides he wants warm weather....signs with Hurricanes. Beats him joining the Wild or Red Wings
DarrenDreger: Tomas Kaberle agrees to 3 yr, $12.75 deal with Carolina!! Done.
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
That is
A very reasonable contract, considering the gong show that has been UFA season so far
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
It's a reasonable contract for the idea of Tomas Kaberle, not the reality of Tomas Kaberle.
Second City Hockey
It's a bird, it's a plane, it's a goddamn shame
Better than
Paying 5.5 over 6 years for the idea of Wisniesky
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
Very true
The Yandle deal makes the Wisniewski contract that much more laughable.
Second City Hockey
It's a bird, it's a plane, it's a goddamn shame
I think the Wiz deal
Was the most ridiculous of them all. Ehrhoff for a decade is laugh out loud funny, but at least his cap hit is only 4M
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
Im glad one of the stupid teams is in our division.
Columbus fans are going to hate Wiz about a year from now when they realize they are paying that much for a 4th or 5th defenseman.
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
I disagree, I would have LOVED to see Kaberle on the Wings
All of those beautiful passes in his own zone to someone wearing the wrong team’s sweater would have been nice…
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 5, 2011 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Thats unfair and crazy. That guy would fit like a glove with Detroit.
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
I never paid a TON of attention to Kaberle before the SCF
because I never really had any reason to when he was with Toronto and I didn’t pay close attention to Boston before probably the eastern conference final. But based on what I saw there and (and what I’ve heard from other people who have watched him MUCH more and say that it wasn’t exactly an aberration) Kaberle turns the puck over a LOT. I mean, he’s a highly skilled defenseman who makes some purely beautiful plays, no doubt, but he also turns the puck over trying to get too cute with passes far more often than should be acceptable, particularly in his own zone
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 5, 2011 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions
If you have any history as a Hawks fan, you know NEVER to wish anything like a very good offensive hockey player on the Detroit Red Wings.
EVER.
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
Ok, that's fair, I get your point
but I just feel like his offensive upside is well more than off-set by his propensity to give the puck away.
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 5, 2011 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions
I wonder if the fan reaction isn't from the perceived change in style....
We Hawks fans seem to think that our Cup winning team from 2010 was like the Harlem Globetrotters on ice. All speed, finesse and puck control. Sure, you throw in a little of the Rat, and bit of Big Buff, but you’ve still got this beautiful-to-watch hockey team skating circles around everyone else. Now many fans seem to think we’re going from the Harlem Globetrotters to the Bill-Laimbeer-Detroit-Pistons.
The truth is (as I’m currently watching my way through the 2010 Hawks run), we weren’t the Globetrotters in the playoffs. We won mostly due to hustle and goaltending. Several timely short-handed goals. The Nucks being, well, the Nucks. Eager and Burish providing energy (and a goal or two as well). We got after teams.
Last season, we were missing the hustle. Carcillo will bring in some of that. My guess is he’ll provide whatever they ask him to. I wasn’t too thrilled when I saw his name either, but the reality is, we need to get back to getting after teams. And Carbomb will help with that.
Thank you Boston for saving us from a dreadful summer! Now, GO HAWKS!!!
if you listen to bowman talk about the lower $ signings
thats pretty much exactly what he’s talking about. He wanted guys who would go out and mix it up, and bring energy on days in which things weren’t clicking for the team.
Dowell, Pisani, Skille – these guys weren’t roleplayers. They were warm bodies.
I think guys like meyers, carcillo, SOB can be considered role players.
SOB
As in O’brien?
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
Okay good
Because I was going to say SOB isn’t much of a roleplayer…unless you mean at the Roxy
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
meh
The Hawks were a bit of everything in the 09-10 playoffs. The San Jose series was about defense and goaltending, and the Nashville series was the ultimate grind, but there were plenty of harlem globetrotter-type moments/games in the Vancouver and Philly series.
It’s sometimes easy to mistake lack of depth of talent for lack of hustle. The Hawks had so much forward depth that it was easy to “get after teams.”
Second City Hockey
I'm Abe Froman, and I approve this message.
So, do the moves Stan has made so far, restore that depth?
Thank you Boston for saving us from a dreadful summer! Now, GO HAWKS!!!
not yet
I liked what I saw from Bolland-Fro-Bickell, but that was a small sample size. Will bicks bury those long range wristers next year, and if not, will he start scoring more dirty goals? Will Fro be the guy we saw during the playoff, or will he be the guy who underperformed for the bulk of last season?
We still don’t have a fourth line center who can help on the pk. We’re still short a top 6 forward (either at center or LW), unless you consider Olesz to be that missing piece. We’re not sure what the 3rd D pairing is going to look like, and whether or not Campoli will be around as Leddy insurance.
Still lots of questions if you ask me.
Second City Hockey
I'm Abe Froman, and I approve this message.
Bicks is quite the question mark (IMHO), considering that the wrister is his
shot of choice for scoring goals, and he is coming off of the surgery on his wrist/forearm following the nasty cut against Vancoufire in the Playoffs.
Hopefully he comes back as good as new, or – with the Henry Rowengartner wrister. How nasty would that be?
Second City Hockey's resident arrogant poster.
Does it piss anyone else off that Jesse Rogers gets to do what he does all day?
A meatball like myself you easily do what he does. I hate myself and want to die when I see his Twitters.
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
How in hell
Does ‘could’ end up as ‘you’
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
I give up. Jesse Rogers is better than me.
/ goes to Ace Hardware
//purchases rope
/// Hjammertime was here
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
I'll take a moment and stand up for Jesse
Years ago, when I was still growing up and Jesse would do post game on The Score, his coverage was the only decent place on the airwaves to hear Hawk Talk. Period. Sure, many of us think we could do his job, and I have no doubt The Triumverate represents the interests of hockey intelligence better than Jesse does. But listening to Jesse’s post games on The Score will stay remarkable to me.
IIRC, Jesse had ZERO knowledge of hockey walking into that job.
Not bad for an amateur.
[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."
by NobodySpecial on Jul 6, 2011 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions
Taffe gone.
Minnesota signs Jeff Taffe to a one-year, two-way deal.
I know. Its riveting.
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 5, 2011 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Sit down Frank, Garrett Exelby is also gone. I know.....I know....
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
I know, and clearly it won't come as news to you that I cried when I learned of it
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 5, 2011 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions
i think we let them go already?
but it is good to see our contract # go down.
Vet limit down....Goodbye John Scott?
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
I nominate
this as our anthem for Carbomb next season.
Templeton Rye'd the Lightning.
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Jul 5, 2011 3:55 PM CDT reply actions
Totally cheap.
But goddamn what a punch. And that sorta shit is intimidating if done right.
Templeton Rye'd the Lightning.
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Jul 5, 2011 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions
I remember when that happened and being adamant about what a douche Carcillo was
but that’s because I live in DC and the Caps are my eastern conference team. Now looking back on it, particularly with ‘Hawk-colored glasses, I’m certainly seeing some benefits to having the type of player that is willing and able to deliver that sort of blow…
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 5, 2011 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions
I won't ever defend that shit, but I do understand when there's a place for it.
Templeton Rye'd the Lightning.
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Jul 5, 2011 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions
That's basically what I mean
there’s no arguing that the specific play was dirty – he punched Matt Bradley in the face before he had a chance to finish getting his gloves off and square up for the fight. I’m merely saying that I understand the need for having a guy who plays on that edge and is capable of being a terrifying force if need be
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 5, 2011 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed, hombre.
The crosscheck he gave Bradley is something I like. A veritable “Wanna fuckin’ mess?” I like that type of stuff if the ref doesn’t see it.
Templeton Rye'd the Lightning.
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Jul 5, 2011 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Not intimidating at all, only dirty and cheap, chicken..it ala Avery
by Presidents Trophy on Jul 5, 2011 8:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh you should leave PT alone
Let him enjoy some Ben & Jerry ice cream and the Real Housewives of New Jersey.
This is over. You can go ahead and order the autopsy now.
Looking forward to seeing Sam fervently defend Carcillo as his Campbell replacement
Yeah, right.
As I’ve written before, Carcillo is identical to Burish – if Burish was on speed, had talent, and could actually fight.
He’ll be fine. We’ll hate him at times like Eager, but the meatheads will love him for those exact same moments.
Unrelated, and doubt I’ll ever link to anything I write, but Frank Rekas of The Rat Trick, a Panthers blog, wrote a piece on Olesz.
Frank has been living in Florida but is originally from Chicago and a Blackhawks fan first. I thought ya’ll might enjoy hearing the straight dope from someone familiar with both teams, even if it doesn’t brighten your day.
Prior to reading this I was all for giving Olesz a shot (unless a top liner is signed this summer). There’s a heck of a lot of bodies at LW already though, and if his outlook is this bleak then I might be nimbly jumping into the “bury him” boat soon.
Lead writer for BlackhawkUp. Follow me on Twitter. God help us all...
by ChicagoNativeSon on Jul 5, 2011 4:10 PM CDT reply actions
we didn't bring back some AHL players
so rockford is an option (via waivers), overseas is an option, trade to a salary floor team is an option…
and why is Olesz on IR?
as deflating as this is
He was still playing on the panthers. I will withhold judgement until i see him play on an actual good team.
by putmeinthemadhouse on Jul 5, 2011 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions
This effect can't be discounted.
much more worrying to me are his GP stats. Guy is always injured.
Good thing we're current loaded up with mediocre LW's then
Yes, Bickell is great value, but I don’t see him ever being a consistent 20 goal scorer. I believe his range is realistically 12-17G. Klink is big, but there’s a reason he makes minimum wage and has been in the minors. Carcillo is a 4th liner. Stalberg is unknown (and in arbitration), but I doubt he ever becomes a solid top 2 line player here. Brunette has had a great career and I expect him to do well, but he’s almost done.
Don’t get me wrong, we’re better at LW than last year and I’m glad the Hawks didn’t overpay for a free agent, but with Sharp currently penciled in at 2C, the hole still remains.
Lead writer for BlackhawkUp. Follow me on Twitter. God help us all...
by ChicagoNativeSon on Jul 6, 2011 7:09 AM CDT up reply actions
By the end of July there will still be a number of teams that need a dumb contract or two to make it to the cap floor
I’m sure the opportunity to dump Olesz on someone else will be there if Stan takes it. I pray he does
Am I paranoid? I don't know. I went to a therapist once, but I left before he gave me the diagnosis, cause he had it out for me.
by Detroit Must Die on Jul 6, 2011 3:13 AM CDT up reply actions
No surprises there.
Even with Kopecky’s departure, Rusty keeping 85 ensures that the Hawks still have more wide receivers than the Bears do.
Second City Hockey
It's a bird, it's a plane, it's a goddamn shame
by McClure on Jul 5, 2011 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
I refuse to take a hockey player with the #85 seriously.
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
doesn't offend my sensibilities
nearly as much as a baseball players wearing numbers north of 60.
Second City Hockey
I'm Abe Froman, and I approve this message.
Manny Ramirez wearing #99 proved how big of a troll he is.
Templeton Rye'd the Lightning.
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Jul 5, 2011 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions
There's rules about numbers?
I only watch/sorta understand hockey.
Curator of Dark Side of the Five Hole
I like our guys, especially these guys.
There are no rules....just social norms that some of us knuckle draggers dont like to see messed with.
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
way back in the day (before all the customization of today) - jerseys came in packs, 1-19 and 30
1 & 30 were goalis cuts
2-8 (or 9) were the bigger player jerseys
9 (or 10) up were smaller jerseys
Fighting stupidity since 1958 (it's taking longer than anticipated)
Confusion will be my epitaph.
It needs more cowbell.
a part of why 14 ended up being my number
I liked the single digit ones, but was one of the smaller guys, so dad grabbed me 14 (which he worre when he played)
Fighting stupidity since 1958 (it's taking longer than anticipated)
Confusion will be my epitaph.
It needs more cowbell.
Deja vu
I’m pretty sure we’ve had this conversation before, but wearing #14 was very cool when we were kids. Let’s play two!
Thank you, sir! May I have another?
+1
You dog. Read Probert’s book for some good Klima stories.
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
He coached a team that played the team my kid was on this past season
They were the PK Warriors. What kind of asshat names a youth hockey association after themselves?
BTW – my kids team throttled them both times in league play.
Inhales loudly and deeply........
Players in the game of football at the wide receiver position traditionally wear numbers between 80-89, though in recent years there has been a movement of receivers who wear numbers in the teens, and even odd exceptions like Devin Hester, who wears 23. Additionally, the Bears have had a franchise history of very infrequently having any wider receivers on their roster of any value, and this recent period is one of those times.
Conversely, hockey players do not normally wear numbers that high, and the players that the Hawks have who wear numbers in the 80s tend to be better than their numerical inter-sport coutnerparts on the Bears, hence the joke.
Second City Hockey
It's a bird, it's a plane, it's a goddamn shame
I don't think he was replying to you
but the inhales loudly and deeply part was funny
Second City Hockey
I'm Abe Froman, and I approve this message.
It was a joke.
I just think if your not a superstar you should fall in line and get with the program. Hossa only wears 81 because 18 is retired. Kane is a superstar and can wear whatever number he wants.
Besides, Im not sure why Rusty would want anything on his jersey which made him stand out….seeing as he is very likely to be be booed a lot.
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
Ray bourque changed his number from 7 to 77 when our gift to Boston got his number retired.
Has nothing to do with this discussion but still a groovy thing for Ray to do. Bitchin’ hair on Ray too.
I got that it was a joke
I just didn’t get it, and as I’ve seen reference to it before on here, I was hoping for some clarification. Thanks all y’all multi-sport fans. :D
Curator of Dark Side of the Five Hole
I like our guys, especially these guys.
Underrated receiver, shitty analyst
McKinnon’s thoughts on football with Boers and Bernstein this past year were serious ultra-meatball, gun-in-mouth caliber radio.
And so ends today’s football and/or Boers and Bernstein discussions, because I said so.
Second City Hockey
It's a bird, it's a plane, it's a goddamn shame
best Bears WR blocker evah
That dude sealed off more tacklers on the sideline for Neal Anderson to run wide on than anyone else in memory.
If they resign Camps
he should take #3.
Templeton Rye'd the Lightning.
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Jul 5, 2011 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions
This is the problem with being a newer Hawks fan...
I readily forget about the older history. Sorry, guys. :-/
Templeton Rye'd the Lightning.
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Jul 5, 2011 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions
I never saw a second of either great # 3 play.
THERE ARE NO EXCUSES!
Im pretty sure I made the exact same mistake you did a few months ago here…
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
That makes me feel a little better.
But still…
Templeton Rye'd the Lightning.
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Jul 5, 2011 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Maggie was just fun to watch
with that blaze of red hair flying up-ice (remember – no helmets).
I should especially care about Magnuson.
Since my heritage is heavily laced with Scandinavians.
Ugh. Big fail.
Templeton Rye'd the Lightning.
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Jul 5, 2011 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Bobby Orr
OMG. He was sent down to the NHL from a higher league.
Yep,
He and our Bobby (#9) were the best best I saw. Can you imagine Gretzky trying to fight like that?
Messier was close to these guys.
Those guys
would have eaten Gretzky alive.
MESSIER
WHAT A LEADER.
Templeton Rye'd the Lightning.
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Jul 5, 2011 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Do you like gladiator movies?
Fighting stupidity since 1958 (it's taking longer than anticipated)
Confusion will be my epitaph.
It needs more cowbell.
Loved Dave Manson in the #3 (before it was retired obviously)
You are next.
by M7 on Jul 5, 2011 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions
There’s a couple problems with him having that number…
Second City Hockey
It's a bird, it's a plane, it's a goddamn shame
Yeah, not just one.
I’m willing to perform whatever penance to atone.
Templeton Rye'd the Lightning.
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Jul 5, 2011 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Well since they can't add 1 and 9, and I now realized they can't add 3...
I guess just #14 again?
Templeton Rye'd the Lightning.
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Jul 5, 2011 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions
UM FUCK KIDDING
Templeton Rye'd the Lightning.
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Jul 5, 2011 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Hurray
Crow kept 50, I know he said he was gonna, but I still felt some apprehension when I clicked the link.
Curator of Dark Side of the Five Hole
I like our guys, especially these guys.
i think he said he would.
When i get me some monies, I’m getting a Crow jersey.
You can get around the NHL lockout on player names on the authentic jerseys by putting a space before or after the name.
My wife got me
a Crow jersey for my B-day, hence the apprehension, despite knowing that he’d said he was gonna keep it.
Curator of Dark Side of the Five Hole
I like our guys, especially these guys.
I'm waiting for my next jersey
and it’s Morin. I love the kid and really hope he makes it.
Templeton Rye'd the Lightning.
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Jul 5, 2011 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I love that Montador picked 5
Sopel reincarnate. Well, the shot blocking at least.
by Ban on Jul 5, 2011 7:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Carcillo
With my head, I know you and the Fifth Feather and everybody else is right. I knew it when we signed him. I remember watching him walk the Leafs’ defense and Gustavsson.
In my heart, I still hate it. I just don’t like the guy, instinctively. The cheap shots, the dives/embellishment, etc. I know that’s a rationalization – my guys don’t do that, only dirty bastards like anybody who hase ever played for Vancouver do that – but it still hurts.
Plus, I know it will be very easy to spend next year saying “well he’s not that bad” and then being outraged when other guys do the same dumb crap he does.
RE: "everybody else is right"
Time will tell. There’s a reason Carcillo comes cheap, and it’s not because he’s a great, or even good player. If he stays headstrong, he can be useful, but he’s sometimes too much of a headcase to keep it together and play a disciplined game. This lack of discipline hurts the teams defensive game, so while he’s out there trying to goon it up, taking the occasional obligatory Carcillo dive, the rest of the team/line mates have to be ready to step up their responsibilities.
Again - logic is interfering with my blind hatred
You’re right. I just need time to get off the high horse and accept the carbomb.
Anytime a player takes a penalty his team/line mates have to step up their responsibilities.
Regardless of how dumb his penalties may be (and I am sure there will be more than a few) 2 minutes is 2 minutes. I thought the Fifth Feather acticle did a nice job of quieting the "Carcillo = goon" crowd, but perhaps not. There are still people that insist there were plenty of available players that the Hawks could have easily signed / traded for instead of Brian Campbell based on his UFA contract size alone, and thus relegate Soupy to passenger status on the Stanley Cup team. No matter what he does Carcillo will never win over some fans.
The less a man makes declarative statements, the less apt he is to look foolish in retrospect.
its the way it works.
I would say I hate cheap shots – and I do, but then, bolland is one of my very favorite hawks, and theres this:
by oregon_hawk on Jul 5, 2011 4:58 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
should have included
(credit to ahnfire and Dark Side of the Five Hole)
oh Bolland.
I <3 you, your crazy eyes, and your trollish ways.
SCH Narc - check yo'self before you wreck yo'self.
God that was so awesome.
Templeton Rye'd the Lightning.
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Jul 5, 2011 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions
How can he consistently do what he does at the exact second the ref isn’t looking? idek
How to leave alone what's doing fine! How to mulch what's dying on the vine!
♥
Right next to the ref, as well
Because a blog of alcoholics just isn't complete without a Scot.
...I forget the rest, but your mother's a whore.
Really?
I thought refs did the f/os.
Because a blog of alcoholics just isn't complete without a Scot.
...I forget the rest, but your mother's a whore.
If the guy was injured on the play or it was a blatant slew foot or high stick, etc.
They can “advise” the ref of the penalty.
Well it's not really splitting hairs
because a linesman can’t call a penalty, so even if the linesman was watching (which he wasn’t) what would he have done?
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 6, 2011 8:27 AM CDT up reply actions
Ok, that's fair
but not exactly applicable in this case as I don’t think that’s the penalty that would have been called…
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 6, 2011 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions
Wrongo! He can advise of a penalty
32.4 Reporting to Referee – The Linesman shall give to the Referees his interpretation of any incident that may have taken place during the game.
The Linesman may stop play and report what he witnessed to the Referees when:(i) There are too many men on the ice
Rule 74
(ii) Articles are thrown on the ice from the players’ bench or penalty bench
Rule 75
(iii) When team personnel interfere with a game official
Rule 39
(iv) When a player who has lost or broken his stick receives one illegally
Rule 10
The Linesman must report upon completion of play, any circumstances pertaining to:(i) Major penalties
Rule 20
(ii) Match penalties
Rule 21
(iii) Misconduct penalties
Rule 22
(iv) Game Misconduct penalties
Rule 23
(v) Abuse of Officials
Rule 39
(vi) Physical Abuse of Officials
Rule 40
(vii) Unsportsmanlike Conduct
Rule 75
(viii) Double-minor penalty when it is apparent that an injury has resulted from a high-stick that has gone undetected by the Referees
Rule 60
Should a Linesman witness a foul (above) committed by an attacking player or goalkeeper (undetected by the Referees) prior to the attacking team scoring a goal, the Linesman shall report what he witnessed to the Referees, the goal shall be disallowed and the appropriate penalty assessed.
32.5 Stopping Play – The Linesman shall stop play:(i) When premature substitution of the goalkeeper has occurred
Rule 71
(ii) When he deems that a player has sustained a serious injury and this has gone undetected by either of the referees
Rule 8
(iii) For encroachment into the face-off area
Rule 76
(iv) When the puck has been directed with a hand to a teammate in any zone other than the defending zone and this has gone undetected by either of the Referees
Rule 79
(v) When the puck is struck by a stick above the normal height of the shoulders and this has gone undetected by either of the Referees
Rule 80
(vi) When either team ices the puck
Rule 81
(vii) When there has been interference by/with spectators
Rule 23
(viii) For any infraction of the rules concerning off-side play at the blue line
Rule 83
(ix) When the puck is out of bounds or unplayable
Rule 85
(x) When a goal has been scored that has not been observed by the Referees
Rule 78
(xi) When the puck is interfered with by an ineligible player/person Rule 5
Rule 78
Rule 74
Rule 84
(xii) The calling of a penalty shot under
Rule 53
Nowhere in what you posted
does it does it say anything to dispel what I said that the linesman could not have called a penalty there. Since the infraction did no pertain to rules 10, 39, 74, or 75 as you’ve outlined above the absolute most that he could have done (had he seen it, which he didn’t) would have been to tell one of the refs about it at the next stoppage but that almost certainly would have resulted in the ref keeping an eye on Bolland for the rest of the game as opposed to a belated penalty call
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 6, 2011 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions
He could have stopped play and advised that there was a penalty if the player was injured or if Dave two handed him.
I’m not arguing with you about that particular play, as it was a fairly harmless trip, a penalty that the ref should have seen, but not one the linesman is going to stop play over.
Most things that a linesman can call are bizarre and do not normally happen. What is interesting is that, lets say the Hawks score and he advises the official of a “penalty”, the goal can be disallowed. Never really happens, but it can.
Rule 85 (x) When a goal has been scored that has not been observed by the Referees
Happens alll the time.
Lead writer for BlackhawkUp. Follow me on Twitter. God help us all...
by ChicagoNativeSon on Jul 6, 2011 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Truish
but you said a linesman can’t call a penalty and I was simply pointing out the one exception to that statement.
Thank you, sir! May I have another?
I know what you mean
But you forget that Bolland does some of that stuff, too. Obviously it isn’t to the same extent, but he did give one of the Sedins a pretty cheap whack to the ankles in last year’s playoffs, and probably a lot of other stuff the cameras didn’t catch.
Hopefully being under Tazer’s no-shit rule and after a crash-course from Bolland on subtelty, we can have a fiestier, less skilled version of Bolland*.
However, if he doesn’t become this, I think I’ll still like him. But this doesn’t mean I’ll pull punches when I criticise him, just like I don’t when Bolland crosses the line.
*This is the best-case scenario, in my mind.
Because a blog of alcoholics just isn't complete without a Scot.
...I forget the rest, but your mother's a whore.
Bolly's definitely "chippy"
But at least the guy doesn’t try to take out other player’s knees or concuss the shit out of them.
Eh
Bolland does some of that stuff, but really that’s stooges-esque compared to, say, Carcillo suckering Matt Bradley, or faking a high stick.
It is true, though; it’s all in the eye of the beholder. Bolland is my favorite Hawk, and while he does stuff that’s considered agitating or potentially cheap, I’ve never heard somebody not a Vancouver fan compare his antics to the kind of “disrespect the game” accusations you hear about a Reibero, Avery, or Carcillo.
Maybe I’m being hypocritical – but no less hypocritical than Don Cherry.
well heres a quote that might make you feel better:
"It’s taken a couple years; it’s a tough line to walk," Carcillo said. "You don’t want to hurt the team when you’re playing like that. I think over the years I’ve gotten a lot better with it. Playing with that emotion and bringing it every night."
by putmeinthemadhouse on Jul 5, 2011 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions
That's awesome
That man’s sneakiness continues to amaze.
I think in his case
he just says me’d
Curator of Dark Side of the Five Hole
I like our guys, especially these guys.
at some point... i mean...
the button is right there.
Yeah don't hate The Waylon
hate the waylon
Curator of Dark Side of the Five Hole
I like our guys, especially these guys.
by DesertHawk on Jul 5, 2011 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ahh
A first hand look at the infamous Waylon “Wayloning” himself. Haha
by Fromtheillstate on Jul 5, 2011 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh... All you need to do is read in-depth for a day or two, and you'll find a few
examples of it, I’m sure.
Second City Hockey's resident arrogant poster.
On Another Note
I feel like seeing “Rusty” (he doesn’t get the honor of a quotation mark-less nickname until he proves something) listed as on Injured Reserve on the Hawks website in mid-July is going to be symbolic of his time here.
Unlike some people,
I’m looking at you Waylon, I don’t have trouble with the reply button.
;>)
whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender
by anytime_I_can on Jul 5, 2011 5:32 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm going against the concensus,
but I don’t like this, unless he becomes a cleaner more skilled version of what he has been for the last few years of his career.
I don’t hate Carcillo, but his on-ice act is shitty and I like to hold my team to a higher standard.
Also consider that a strong 4th line Fighting Agitating Center that wins FO’s at a 57.7% clip was availabe for $700,000 in the aforementioned Zenon Konopka. This would have made me happy and would have been exactly what was needed.
And stop this bullshit about Bolland. Tripping someone standing still is not dirty. Taking a cross ice run at someones head, who already has concussion history, is dirty.
One is gamesmanship. The other is intent to injure. That’s the difference.
whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender
Easy there,
I’m not sure anybody said the two were comparable – in fact I expressly argued against the idea.
Otherwise, I agree with most of what you said besides the Konopka part.
Are you under the impression that I was replying to you?
I was not.
whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender
by anytime_I_can on Jul 5, 2011 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions
I want cleaner more skilled versions of every single Blackhawk player too....
….who doesn’t?
I think Carcillo has an edge over Konopka in the energy department as well, and though he can be pretty decent at draws, he has also been a defensive liabilty once the puck drops.
Not to look at carcillo through rose-colored glasses or anything, but the image of this team is not defined by our 4th line, it is defined by our captain…and because of that fact I think Carcillo has a very good chance of “falling in line” and playing with a controlloed burn that fits this team quite well.
The less a man makes declarative statements, the less apt he is to look foolish in retrospect.
Agreed.
4th line center should not be a defensive liability, but I don’t believe that Danny boy is a great defensive forward either, and I think Konopka brings more on the Offensive side.
Yes, image defined by Capt. Marvel and friends, but I think that your rose colored glasses have grown rose colored glasses of their own. ;>)
And just for the record, I hope that you are correct on this point and I’m wrong.
whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender
by anytime_I_can on Jul 5, 2011 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Konopka is absolutely useless inside the offensive zone.
Templeton Rye'd the Lightning.
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Jul 5, 2011 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions
I'll admit....
I am cheering for Carcillo. He is a Hawk now and wanting him to fail is akin to wanting the Hawks to fail. I just think his signing addresses a need at a very decent price and has more upside potential than downside risk. Also, I am a bit of a prick myself and appreciate role players that are also agitators a bit more than most fans.
The less a man makes declarative statements, the less apt he is to look foolish in retrospect.
Im in your boat.
Lets win one for the meatballs! The hockey elitists have to lose on eventually!
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
who does Carcillo take with him to the box?
According to hockeyfights.com, here’s the guys Carcillo fought in 2010-11:
Micheal Haley, Mark Stuart, Mike Duco, Kyle Clifford, Kevin Klein, Jake Dowell, Kyle Chipchura, Dale Weise, Tom Kostopoulos, Brandon Prust, Zenon Konopka and Mike Brown.
Can’t believe I’m saying this, but most of those guys are actually worse than Carcillo. But maybe I’ll grow to prefer him off the ice anyways. So fight away, Carbomb.
In other news
98% of fourth liners and 3rd pair d-men are fringe NHL’ers. Shocking development.
FifthFeather.com
by El Duque's Raft on Jul 5, 2011 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions
I really like our D
I’ll be ecstatic about it if campoli re-signs.
Very excited for Monty.
His style is exactly what this team needs from a #2/#3 pairing d-man.
Templeton Rye'd the Lightning.
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Jul 5, 2011 5:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Pat,
I may be ecstatic about Montador once I’ve had a chance to see him regularly.
But right now, he’s just a 31 year old depth d-man.
I haven’t seen enough of him to get really excited.
whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender
by anytime_I_can on Jul 5, 2011 5:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Stalberg and Campoli to arbitration per FB.
I’ll work on an official source.
"Showin' her my Toews-face!"
http://www.nhlpa.com/News/Media-Releases/Details.aspx?R=C010CF4E-6796-4581-8F18-12BE5FD5DC42
"Showin' her my Toews-face!"
there he is...
New York Rangers
Brian Boyle
Ryan Callahan
Brandon Dubinsky
Michael Sauer
So, the ship has sailed.
STOLL.
Templeton Rye'd the Lightning.
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Jul 5, 2011 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions
it hasn't;
if the rangers don’t like the number the arbitrator produces, and they walk away, that is actually the best situation for the hawks, because it gives them the opportunity to pick up Dubinsky without giving back picks.
Yeah, thats what I thought.
Hopefully they get anxious and deal his ass.
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
its nice that Dubinsky is on there
but the fact Boyle & Callahan are as well is equally awesome.
I’d take any of those three tho i might be a bit skeptical of Boyle.
His size is impressive and his numbers from last year are as well but last season he barely cracked 20 pts in 71 games two seasons ago.
Was last year a fluke or a sign of better things?
Either way, the thought of seeing Dubinsky in an Indian Head sweater is sounding more & more less like a fantasy and more like a probability.
C’mon, Stan. I know you have one more bit of magic up your sleeve.
"It's The Chicago Blackhawks, man." ~ Jeremy Roenick, June 9th, 2010.
sorry
but *ASIDE FROM last season he barely cracked 20 pts in 71 games two seasons ago.
"It's The Chicago Blackhawks, man." ~ Jeremy Roenick, June 9th, 2010.
Let me say....
I’ve seen Dubinsky in the Indianhead before….he played junior hockey for the Portland Winterhawks, and he looks really good in the jersey.
At first, I thought you were talking about Steve Dubinsky.
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
Arbitration may in fact benefit the 'Hawks
I don’t see the arbitrator awarding Campoli more than $2.25 – $2.3 million, which is about what he’s worth (maybe a little pricier than previously expected, but the cap DID go up $5 million…) and my guess is that the reason they haven’t come to a deal yet is that he’s asking for at least $2.5 million, maybe even the same $2.75 million that Montador is getting.
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 6, 2011 8:40 AM CDT up reply actions
That's true
but the contracts of other “comperable” RFA’s can be considered, and they might be a little bit higher than they would have been had the cap not gone up as much as it did. So it can’t be considered directly, but indirectly the cap having gone up so much might have an affect. Either way, though, the point is that I think an arbitrator will award him a sum that’s reasonable and affordable for the ‘Hawks and probably a bit less than whatever he’s asking for.
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 6, 2011 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions
Sorry Hawks fans
Carcilllo is a very small middle weight, excitable and easily taken off his game, that hasn’t changed since his days with Phoenix. Plus he usually gets ragged dolled in fights. Not a deterrent at all.
by Presidents Trophy on Jul 5, 2011 8:04 PM CDT reply actions
So, what you're saying is he is born to play for Vancoufire?
ZING!
Ask Burrows about Carcillo.
Second City Hockey's resident arrogant poster.
No, they are hoping Mancari makes team for some 4th line muscle. Burrows has never won a fight, there's no kudos there to C
by Presidents Trophy on Jul 5, 2011 8:18 PM CDT up reply actions
We know. Its hard to win a fight when your in your shell.....
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
by HjammerTime on Jul 5, 2011 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
...also, the irony of a Nucks fan talking about guys being taken off their game is rich.
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
by HjammerTime on Jul 5, 2011 8:40 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I know. My thoughts are very choppy.
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
Burrows is now supposed to score not agitate. Yes Nucks fans wish he was a good fighter but he's just not.
by Presidents Trophy on Jul 5, 2011 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions
He's quite the biter, though....
Son, when you participate in sporting events, it's not whether you win or lose : it's how drunk you get.
He also pulls hair quite well.
Perhaps GMMG will hold a press conference complaining that the other teams are not required to ice teams that include 5-7 year old girls, in order to level the playing field for Alexandre and his rags-to-riches story.
I could see it happening with that crew up there in Vancoufire.
Second City Hockey's resident arrogant poster.
When I think of
the best agitators in NHL history, hair pulling, biting isn’t something I remember them doing….
What next, he plucks someones eye out while the Sedins skate out to center ice and slowly strip off their uniforms (in unison of course), to the accompaniment of the “The Stripper”…?
Son, when you participate in sporting events, it's not whether you win or lose : it's how drunk you get.
I would think if he plucked someone's eye out
that Honk would pretend that it tripped him, and a penalty should be called, as he flipped in the air, and landed a good 45 feet away, clutching his head like Beavis screaming “My SPLEEN, My SPLEEN!”
(Coincidentally, NHL 12’s trailer shows Honk leaping in the air in front of Crow during a screening attempt. I remember seeing the Sedins jump straight up in the air a few different times during the playoffs.)
Second City Hockey's resident arrogant poster.
Or he would cover his face and scream "Heinrick's eye!"...
Son, when you participate in sporting events, it's not whether you win or lose : it's how drunk you get.
you're going to tell hawks fans about players easily taken off their games?
I’m pretty sure all of your “elite” players disappear at the first sign of adversity
Dave Bolland is synonymous with adversity to canuckleheads
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 6, 2011 8:42 AM CDT up reply actions
Not until the Finals at least this year. Your guys were the ones this year. But until Sedins win cup, that will be the rap, agree
by Presidents Trophy on Jul 5, 2011 10:44 PM CDT up reply actions
They showed an inability to close a series in Game 1 no matter how you want to frame it
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be. - Douglas Adams
by justforkicks on Jul 5, 2011 11:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Uhh...IF, big f'in IF...
"Jonathan Toews: Youngest Triple Gold Winner EVER...EVER is a LONG time, no script written for people like that"
by Saskjet on Jul 7, 2011 10:09 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
At least our small, excitable, irritable middle weight doesn't assault fans.
Templeton Rye'd the Lightning.
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Jul 5, 2011 9:28 PM CDT up reply actions
He also hasn't yet bitten anyone, or pulled anyone's hair - that we've ever heard of.
Second City Hockey's resident arrogant poster.
That's a good one.
You have missed but Rick R. Is now with Winnipeg. We will miss the Ripper…..a lot
by Presidents Trophy on Jul 5, 2011 10:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Still don't like it, but...
Watching the Flyers-Sabres series on NHL Network right now. I never noticed how decent Carcillo actually is along the boards.
Looking for positives…
Chicagoan in the Lou.
i'm loving the carcillo signing just based on the psychological impact it has on the fanbase
Shock/Denial: Wait is this a joke?
Anger: WHAT THE FUDGING FUDGE BOWMAN WHAT ARE YOU ARGHHHHH!!!!
Bargaining: Hmm this must be a part of a trade so we can get Ladd or Big Buff
Depression: He takes so many penalties. We’re going to suck. Everything sucks.
Acceptance: Fifth Feather
by robondacob on Jul 5, 2011 11:40 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
pretty hilarious
HjammerTime approves.
Basically EVERYONE ELSE sets fire to their own front lawn.
Then El Duque weighs in.
The ball starts rolling the other way, and soon basically EVERYONE ELSE (except for aeroplane, ChicoMaki, maybe a couple others) starts coming around. Currently, Carcillo has an outside shot of being annointed “the missing piece”.
If I’m not mistaken, we are now due for the next definitive, withering critique of the Carcillo signing as a sure sign of END TIMES.
We like our people!
I skipped bargaining and depression
….and to be fair I changed my mind within the first 5 minutes. Im pretty sure it was 90% due to the contrarian in me seeing the unjustified and massively overcooked venom being spewed at both player and organization within the first 5 minutes of the announcement.
Then I took it a step further and went to Excitement.
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
Include me in the list with Aeroplane and Chico
I’m agin I tells ya.
Thank you, sir! May I have another?
No way to tell until season's mid - point
So while it’s certainly debatable about this addition, we’ll know soon enough. I personally will look at the top line’s ice times by mid – December, and of course their W/L record.
just to be clear...
I think he’s a lousy signing, but he’s our lousy signing. And I’ll defend him against other fan bases for no other reason than Blackhawk pride and team allegiance.
You've taken a good position.
Anything you get will be a positive. I meanwhile will be eating crow if he does in fact pull a Bertuzzi. Still, Im looking forward to seeing what he brings to the table.
First game is against the Jets. Maybe he can challenge that Big Buff guy.
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Templeton Rye'd the Lightning.
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Jul 6, 2011 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions
rec'd
a wonderful SCH Stat on the Fly
by flyersfaninchicago on Jul 6, 2011 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions
if you take away Konopka's
265 minutes or so of fighting penalties, he’s left with only 42 minutes of minor penalties in 82 games. That makes him more disciplined that Carcillo, or something.
The Konopka ship has sailed anyhow
let it go.
Am I paranoid? I don't know. I went to a therapist once, but I left before he gave me the diagnosis, cause he had it out for me.
by Detroit Must Die on Jul 6, 2011 3:36 AM CDT up reply actions
i'm illustrating
how silly the Fifth Feather article is on Carcillo’s PIMs. You can do the same math with any of the meatheads out there. And the article doesn’t really do anything to dismiss Carcillo’s lack of defensive responsibility for stretches of time.
but surely it's appropriate for Carcillo or Konopka or anyone
to try to distinguish misconducts, fighting, coincidental minors, and regular penalties, with the last category being by far the most detrimental to the team, no?
We like our people!
I agree with you
but Konopka had 31 minors in double the playing time. Carcillo’s 2009-10 season saw him with more penalties (32 minors) in fewer games and minutes than Konopka has had the previous few seasons.
I’m just saying the Fifth Feather article is based on a silly argument. Especially when you consider that Dowell might have been the best (or second best) player Carcillo took with him to the penalty box last season.
Different argument
The main point against Carcillo is how he takes dumb or selfish penalties. He took less than 16 penalties that left his team short-handed. As McClure pointed, Kopecky took more. So this hand-wringing about how our penalty kill has to be so much better now is pretty much that, hand-wringing.
I would also point how silly it is to simply use +/- to determine who’s a defensively responsible player and who’s not.
By the way, Konopka had 25 fighting majors last year so he still had 200 something minutes of other penalties.
FifthFeather.com
by El Duque's Raft on Jul 6, 2011 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions
I didn't use +/-
as a gauge to his defensive game. You’re projecting now. But that -14 is hilariously bad for being on one of the best NHL squads.
A vast majority of Konopka penalty minutes were misconducts. If you were to divide how often the players left their respective teams shorthanded by TOI, the numbers are a wash. Carcillo’s PIMs would be easier to gloss over if he actually took a better player to the box with him, but that’s just not the case. In most cases, he was the better player.
I can find a few times you cited his -14 as the main reason
he’s a bad defensive player. So if that’s projecting, so be it.
It’s funny how you were initially upset when the Hawks signed him because he takes dumb penalties that hurt the team. Point is made to refute that he doesn’t take as many dumb penalties that hurt his team as people assumed and then you counter with, ’that’s a silly argument and he’s still a bad defensive player’.
At this point, I’m done defending the signing. I didn’t really care all that much to begin with; I just don’t think it should be treated as though the Hawks signed Adolf Carcillo.
FifthFeather.com
by El Duque's Raft on Jul 6, 2011 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions
I would love it...
for you to find the “few times” where I correlate the -14 to poor defensive play.
And it’s not just how he gets penalties, but it’s who he takes off the ice with him. It’s usually NEVER at his team’s benefit (and although it’s cute that Carcillo plays grab ass with other lesser players while ignoring the bigger picture, it’s not cool if he’s doing it for the team I root for). Does the Fifth Feather article touch upon the quality of who he takes to the box with him? It seems to me that argument would be at the core of a well-rounded article on the topic. It’s not a surprise it’s ignored.
And why is he gooning shit up during blow-outs? Stupidity. So having said all that, and having read Fifth Feather’s article on the subject, it doesn’t change the fact that the guy takes stupid penalties. And he even takes him when he doesn’t do anything (because the refs hate him that much).
but I regress. I’m sure he’ll provide some laughs beyond the predictable.
I love how three-dimensional your argument has become all of a sudden
Now it’s not good enough to draw penalties but he’s got to do it against the other team’s top competition. I would say the reason it’s not covered is that it’s pretty much assumed whomever he’s going to the box with or drawing penalties against is the other team’s 4th line.
As for riff-raff during blowouts, it’s pretty much been happening since they used cow turds as pucks. I fail to see how taking penalties at that time hurts the Hawks in anyway other than public image which some people seem to hold in a ridiculously high degree.
FifthFeather.com
by El Duque's Raft on Jul 6, 2011 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions
yawn...
still holding my breath on the “few times” I equated the -14 with Carcillo’s lack of a defensive game.
Here ya go
stats
Carcillo this past season:
57 games. 4 goals. 2 assists. -14 (by far the worst on the Flyers). Defensive liability. 127 PIM (over 2 per game). Only 80 hits.
The guy isn’t just a bad apple, he’s not a good player.
by aeroplane on Jul 1, 2011 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions
your numbers
still leave a ton to be desired and don’t wash away his 6 total points and -14 on one of the league’s best teams.d
by aeroplane on Jul 1, 2011 5:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Those are two examples. Notice how immediately after you mention the -14, your next words are : defensive liability. Which most people would take to mean you used the -14 as the reason to say that.
FifthFeather.com
by El Duque's Raft on Jul 6, 2011 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions
and yet...
I fail to see how those quotes state that his +/- numbers are THE reason for his shitty defensive play. Help me out here.
You’re losing me, bud.
Also notice
how after I put 2 assists I put -14, which most people would take to mean I used the 2 assists to say that.
Not really
those two stats aren’t exactly related to each other. Saying -14 and then saying defensive liability would imply you’re using that number as your basis for the statement.
Whatever, you want to hate him no matter what anyone says. I don’t really care all that much. Just don’t belittle other arguments because you need to be right about whether Dan Carcillo is a useful player or not.
FifthFeather.com
by El Duque's Raft on Jul 6, 2011 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Just curious
But what exactly does “a” mean in this situation? I’ve seen it used back in the great goalie debate and with trolls, but this just didn’t seem to fit.
Carcillo has more actual hockey skill than Konopka, if he can be made to focus on it.
I thought the Fifth Feather’s piece fairly adequately illustrated that.
If Carcillo can keep his head on straight he goes a long way toward making a 4th line that is both a pain in the ass to play against and is a legit threat to dent the twine.
Am I paranoid? I don't know. I went to a therapist once, but I left before he gave me the diagnosis, cause he had it out for me.
by Detroit Must Die on Jul 6, 2011 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Carcillo may have more hockey skill than Konopka. Although that wasn’t my point nor do I think the Fifth Feather piece illustrates that at all.
The Fifth Feather piece wasn't trying to get that point across
so much as it was trying to dispel the notion that Carcillo kills his team by taking dumb penalties. It does mention, however, that:
at least two ’core’ players mentioned the need for a player who can fight and actually play
Carcillo fits that bill – sure plays on the edge, but he does have 2 NHL seasons in which he’s eclipsed 10 goals (he had 13 as a rookie in 2007-‘08 with Phoenix and 12 in 2009-’10 with Philly) whereas Zenon Konopka has scored a grand total of 8 goals in his entire NHL career thus far. There is no doubt that Carcillo, when motivated to actually play (i.e. when his head isn’t firmly lodged up his ass) has MUCH more skill than Konopka; Konopka would be a minor upgrade at best to John Scott skating on the 4th line, Carcillo is a solid grade above
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 6, 2011 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Haven't you heard? The Core needs to stand there and take their fucking beatings and shut up about it.
Nevermind all the other teams protect their stars……this team is supposed to just stand there and take it.
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
This is where it's gets sidetracked
He’s not a bodyguard or anything like that, but more of a known lunatic.
The Hawks were a fairly stale team last year. How many times did people bitch about them not showing up or not standing up for themselves when someone took liberties or when they were just plain getting butts kicked.
Someone like Carcillo should remedy that problem.
FifthFeather.com
by El Duque's Raft on Jul 6, 2011 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree...although I do think Carcillo will be taking names when people take liberties with Kane or Towes
Last season, until Campoli showed up, Brouwer Seabrook and Kopy were the only guys who could provide any muscle or snarl around the net. Carcillo-Mayers and Montador will help, if not totally solve that problem.
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
Yes, Carbomb will likely be taking names...
and misspelling them.
Lead writer for BlackhawkUp. Follow me on Twitter. God help us all...
by ChicagoNativeSon on Jul 6, 2011 6:20 PM CDT up reply actions
konopka vs. Scott
Konopka would be a major upgrade over Scott. C’mon now…
Not really
upgrade, sure, but MAJOR upgrade? No
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 6, 2011 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Konopka is an everyday player and may even be useful on the PK from time to time. Considering Scott isn’t really useful for much other than breaking a skull here and a stick there, it just might be major (lowercase spelling) upgrade.
Okay, okay, okay. You’re right. He’s wouldn’t be a major upgrade.
Konopka has only been an everyday player
on incredibly bad teams. Just saying.
FifthFeather.com
by El Duque's Raft on Jul 6, 2011 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Konopka has only been an everyday player on bad teams
Better?
FifthFeather.com
by El Duque's Raft on Jul 6, 2011 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions
For those saying Carbomb can only KO with a suckerpunch;
Krys Barch would like to have a word with you.
Templeton Rye'd the Lightning.
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Jul 6, 2011 8:11 AM CDT reply actions
That was a NICE punch
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 6, 2011 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions
The best part
is how Barch had a distinct reach advantage, and Carbomb still dropped him with a solid jab.
Templeton Rye'd the Lightning.
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Jul 6, 2011 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions
At least he skated away after dropping him
I tend to look for any silver lining in this things.
Seconded.
He seems to have a good fighting etiquette most of the time.
Templeton Rye'd the Lightning.
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Jul 6, 2011 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions
When John Scott can do THIS
I will disparage the Carcillo signing.
[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."
Going against the grain, but
Carcillo is a garbage player who I will not root for and I hope fails spectacularly. Complete waste of 775k and a roster spot that could go to someone who can play. I don’t dislike pests as a rule, he’s just a terrible one despite drawing penalties because he can’t control himself.
And for all his “grit” and “intimidation”, he can’t even scare a goalie.
The same Miller who wanted Hjammer thrown out of hockey for a clean hit?
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
yup
that same Miller. Loved him in the Olympics, love him even after he came to his teammate’s aid (even if he was wrong on Hjammer).
to be fair Miller was purely defending a teammate
I’d be more surprised by Miller if he simply swallowed the situation and said nothing. Kudos to him as a vocal leader. I agree that it was a merely a poor situation and feel bad that Pominville got hurt, but I don’t blame Miller for reacting the way he did.
Am I paranoid? I don't know. I went to a therapist once, but I left before he gave me the diagnosis, cause he had it out for me.
by Detroit Must Die on Jul 6, 2011 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
A quick aside
the “experts” kind of confuse me. I am perplexed as to how Erhoff and Regher will provide Miller much if any additional support over what he received last year. Though I like the addition of Leino as an additional piece to support Vanek or Roy.
Am I paranoid? I don't know. I went to a therapist once, but I left before he gave me the diagnosis, cause he had it out for me.
by Detroit Must Die on Jul 6, 2011 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Buffalo was rather weak offensively...
the hope is that Ehrhoff can further kick start their transition game. Not sure how successful that’ll end up being, though. It’s not like he’ll have Burrows or the twins to inflate his numbers.
Rooting against him mans your rooting against the Hawks.
Anyway you slice it.
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
I....uhh.....okay.
/slowly backs away
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
I'm with you on this one, completely.
Let’s just step away for now, and leave it to….
No. Fuck that.
BURN IT, BURN IT TO THE GROUND!!!!!
KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!!!!
Second City Hockey's resident arrogant poster.
oooh! pretty fire
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 6, 2011 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions
I hate to break this to you
but the whole point of rooting for a team is that you’re an actual fan of the entire team, not just players you prefer at the moment. If not, than you’re nothing more than a jaundiced observer.
I for one...
will be rooting for Carcillo to grow up and become a “normal”, functioning member that contributes to our team.
This had grown rather tired, kids.
Templeton Rye'd the Lightning.
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Jul 6, 2011 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions
i didn't mean it in a demeaning way...
I’m just saying I’m not rooting against the guy. He’s a Hawk now.
A team
is a collection of players. I’m not such a homer that I will root for players I dislike just because they’re hawks. If I do that, I’m just rooting for laundry. I can’t wait for people here to defend Carcillo the next time he does the exact same thing that Burrows or Torres do on a nightly basis.
Obviously, I want the hawks to win every time they take the ice. But that doesn’t mean I have to want them all to do well individually. Ideally, Carcillo will play so poorly they are forced to cut him before too much damage is done.
He seemed to stick in Philly for quite some time and they seemed to do quite well with him.
/elephant in room
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
No he sucked continuously
Never had one good minute on the ice in his entire career there – nor in PHX.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFplN_FTMpE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Prk2Lojjmbw
I think you guys will get used to Carbomb, don’t worry about it. He’s a 4th liner, so don’t expect too much from him. He is able to protect his teammates, annoy opposing players, and sometimes even score a goal. The videos are him beating the crap out of Barch and Gaborik, by the way. I’m a Carcillo fan, so I’ll drop by occasionally.
That was fun, I enjoyed watching Carcillo beat the crap out of Gaborik (the Barch one was posted and watched earlier)
That really should have been off-setting 5-minute fighting majors to both Carcillo and Gaborik, the fact that Gaborik didn’t go to the box on that was bullshit. It’s not as if Carcillo just started swinging at a defenseless player, Gaborik dropped the gloves first and then proceeded to get the shit kicked out of him. Just ‘cause you lose the fight (badly) isn’t supposed to mean that you don’t get penalized for it…
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 6, 2011 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions
I apologize, I didn’t know the first video was posted already. And I agree, Gaborik asked for it. If you drop the gloves with Carcillo… well good luck.
No worries, we multi-post things here all the time
I only brought it up as a qualifier as to why I was only commenting on his ass-whupping of Gaborik and not the nice 1-punch KO of Barch
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 6, 2011 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Gaborik
Actually did get 5 minutes for the fight, they just didn’t get that far in the video.
Pretty stupid on Gabby’s part to drop the gloves first against Carcillo.
Yeah... My favorite part of the video is the homer MSGnet guys
ranting about how wrong it was for Carcillo to fight Gaborik.
Carcillo grabbed Gaborik, wrapped him up and separated him from the pushing-shoving crowd around his goaltender. He gave him one quick, gloved jab, and then Gaborik dropped his glove.
He got what he deserved. He should have known better.
Second City Hockey's resident arrogant poster.
Glad I'm not the
only one who thought those guys were homerin it up a bit excessively.
Curator of Dark Side of the Five Hole
I like our guys, especially these guys.
If you've ever seen a game on MSG TV
which I did when I lived in NY state for a year, you’d understand that such rampant homerism is really par for the course with the announcers. The network carries the Rangers games as well as the Islanders and the Devils and even the Sabres frequently, and regardless of which NY team they’re showing the announcers always ham it up. Quite frankly I’m surprised by how subdued they were, I would have expected them to be even more homerish.
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 7, 2011 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions
This Islander announcer seems to speak some truth.
http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2010/11/22/1829829/howie-rose-comments-islanders-broadcaster
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
I think that was really just out of frustration
If the Islanders were even remotely descent, it’d be a different story. Also, if you switch the Islanders for the Rangers and that video were a clip of Carcillo fighting say Tavares, I guarantee that Howie Rose’s comments would be just as homerific towards Tavares and the Islanders as the Rangers announcer was…
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
by FrankStallone on Jul 7, 2011 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree. I always just found that clip hilarious.
Also, I apologize for linking a Travis Hughes article. I feel shame….
Detroit Red Wings - Green Bay Packers - Minnesota Twins : Axis of Evil
first line goals
i’d take a few more from them…
in fact, in order, i like short-handed goals, first line goals, second line goals, third line goals, and then fourth line goals.
i am of the same thoughtline as you, samfels. i don’t really like carcillo, but i’ve also been complaining that the hawks avoid hitting people like they’re afraid of retaliation. trouble is, they get hit anyway. now maybe they can dish a little out and not just take it…
http://www.simdynasty.com/index.jsp?refer=mychiefs58
Chippytown is only one block from Goonsville . . .
I have no illusions about our ‘09-’10 SC Championship team being a finesse only team. They were every bit as physical and tough as they were finesse talented. Big shots, big hits and fast feet. While they didn’t pick fights- they didn’t shy away from them either. When it was time to throw some gas on the fire, Buff/Bolland/Ladd/Burish could provide the spark with a big hit. There is no question those same guys walked the fine line between “chippy” and “goon” frequently. The ‘10-’11 Hawks seemed to lack that same physical presence or the ability to impose their will on the opposition. Without adding toughness our Hawks will start looking like the Canucks whom sans Bieksa/Kesler and Torres(now a Coyote) basically are a bunch of creampuffs. It doesn’t take much to rattle creampuffs, and the playoffs are always more physical. See Bolland and the Sedins. Enter Carcillo . . . I’m warm to the idea if he can learn to walk the line between chippy and goon more like Bolland. I’m warm to the idea if he can throw down with the appropriate opponent at the appropriate time (not the opening whistle.) May the Indianhead guide his ways along with Coach Q! I hated him as a Flyer, but if he he is going to wear the indianhead AND my favorite number (13) I could never root against him . . .
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