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SCH, SOPA, The Internet and You

You probably (or at least should) know that we have a strict "no politics" policy here at SCH. Not because we don't care, we certainly do, but we want this to be a place where everyone can get along and forget about the other distractions in the world and just talk about hockey or whatever other weird tangent the comment section goes off on. There's a proper time and place to talk about politics, like after your 2 bottle of wine at Thanksgiving with your estranged (or just strange) aunt and uncle.

We're breaking that rule for a brief moment here though. By now I'm sure you've heard of SOPA and its companion PIPA. If you haven't, check them out here. These bills are bad news for many sites and we here at Second City Hockey and SBN as a whole are no exception. SBN has release an official statement against SOPA and we're right there with them. While stopping piracy on the internet is a good thing, these bills open the doors for much worse things to happen. Even our morning links section could potentially be deemed infringement if these bills passes. Worse, PayPal could be banned from doing business with any sites that even questionable meaning we wouldn't have a way to get you your online copies of The Committed Indian and Fels might be forced to actually get a real job. No one wants that... especially him.

So we strongly ask you to sign any petition but it will go a lot further if you actually contact your representatives over the phone. If you don't know how to get in touch with your representatives (or just don't know who they are) - look them up here and here and then give 'em a call. I'm sure they'll be happy to hear from their constituency.

The one change you'll see on SCH is that all links to illegal streams of games (Hawks or others) will be removed from the comment section and anyone who repeatedly posts them will be warned and eventually banned (though I hope it never comes to that). Other than that it's business as usual for us. Godspeed.

Comment 661 comments  |  3 recs  | 

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Stitched Horsehide

he can go as a baseball next Halloween

Maybe, just once, someone will call me 'Sir' without adding, 'You're making a scene."

by cdz3210 on Jan 19, 2012 3:00 PM CST up reply actions  

cue horse whinny

Many Shubs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Sloar that day I can tell you!

by Gozer the Traveler on Jan 19, 2012 6:42 PM CST via Android app up reply actions  

Follow the link

/pre-cue’d

SCH, a softer, kinder place to comment on violent sports.

by ChicagoNativeSon on Jan 19, 2012 6:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Oh, Wibur! That smarts!

"What doesn't kill us makes us stronger"

by Joe Banks on Jan 20, 2012 8:33 AM CST up reply actions  

Someone is against Pippa? The pert bottomed sister of the new royal in England?

Who could be against her?

Fighting stupidity since 1958 (its a much bigger project than originally envisioned).
Confusion will be my epitaph.
It needs more cowbell.

by krome on Jan 19, 2012 1:12 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

(raises hand)

/throws molotov cocktail at saskjet/

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 1:14 PM CST up reply actions  

easy, tiger...

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 1:22 PM CST up reply actions  

I thought you were talking

about “Sandpapery” Forwards who get suspended and injured a lot!

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 1:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Pretty sure he meant C-A-R-B-O-M-B-S...

Whoops, you guys prolly spell it “CAERBOMBS”…

No Shagga, No Dagga

by Saskjet on Jan 19, 2012 3:10 PM CST up reply actions  

that would be Cahirbombs...

“Caer” is Scottish

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 3:12 PM CST up reply actions  

well,, while the original

is “Skating With The Johnssons”.. someone’s got to do it.. it’s a dirty job and the pay is lousy, but this is how much I care..

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 3:21 PM CST up reply actions  

you can't hex the badgerdano, mate.. sorry!

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 1:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Every power given to government

will be abused to the maximum extent of the power granted. The powers that would be granted by SOPA or PIPA are far in excess of those needed to correct the problem.

by stanfordron on Jan 19, 2012 1:06 PM CST reply actions  

I'm paraphrasing someone here.. can't recall who..

“Imagine politicians voting for less power! That would be like junkies voting against free smack”

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 1:10 PM CST up reply actions  

there seems to be a consensus

that the Prez will use his veto on this one in its existing form (my italics).. which means this won’t be going away anytime soon..

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 1:13 PM CST up reply actions  

Copyright is necessary and important - and must be done right

I don’t think “nothing” is an option.

These just don’t seem to be the ones to pick to make things better

Fighting stupidity since 1958 (its a much bigger project than originally envisioned).
Confusion will be my epitaph.
It needs more cowbell.

by krome on Jan 19, 2012 1:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Copyright law

And protection of intellectual property has been exploited terribly in its current state

Nymphin' Ain't Easy Fly Fishing
Back off man, I'm a scientist

by BigCSouthside on Jan 19, 2012 1:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Protected far beyond

that which is necessary to encourage the future production of more copyrightable material (which is the original purpose for copyright law).

by stanfordron on Jan 19, 2012 1:40 PM CST up reply actions  

The issue in this particular case

is that it has never been so easy to infringe on a copyright, without cost or risk to the infringer.

New technology always creates struggles over how to: a) monetize it and b) protect it once you have monetized it.

An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. (Jef Mallett)

by 334Rules on Jan 19, 2012 2:11 PM CST up reply actions  

But information wants to be free

How much does a perpetual copywrite, as compared with say 20-30 years, foster creativity and protect the value of intellectual property?

We like our people!

by cliffkoroll on Jan 19, 2012 2:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Congress was explicitly

not granted the power to protect IP perpetually.

by stanfordron on Jan 19, 2012 2:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Someone should tell Disney

I mean shit, most of their most valuable copyrights were filched from “public domain” sources going back centuries.

We like our people!

by cliffkoroll on Jan 19, 2012 2:33 PM CST up reply actions  

I was co-counsel

on a huge win v. Disney. Let me know when you are ready to roll.

by stanfordron on Jan 19, 2012 2:43 PM CST up reply actions  

ha! awesome

and yes Buena Vista/Disney are among the worst when it comes to charging extotionate rates for their products.. in this day and age no-one who has a tiny bit of internet savvy and a reasonable connection is going to pay $40 for Mulan…

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 2:46 PM CST up reply actions  

The rip-offs go both ways.

I was on the other end – protecting artists who were ripped-off by Disney.

by stanfordron on Jan 19, 2012 2:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Actually,

Disney is a little scared of me. I’m the guy who plowed through 40K financial documents, solved the puzzle that is their accounting system and proved the damages.

by stanfordron on Jan 19, 2012 2:53 PM CST up reply actions  

must have been an interesting time

by aeroplane on Jan 19, 2012 2:56 PM CST up reply actions  

who plays you in the movie?

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 3:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Hopefully not Julia Roberts

by aeroplane on Jan 19, 2012 3:03 PM CST up reply actions  

(crosses fingers)

/throws rabbit’s foot at saskjet/

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 3:05 PM CST up reply actions  

No movie.

We are all subject to a perpetual non-disclosure order.

by stanfordron on Jan 19, 2012 3:08 PM CST up reply actions  

We can make an SCH version

Where we all just make up the story and act out. Then we can have the movie!

by BodomSlayer on Jan 19, 2012 3:10 PM CST up reply actions  

My dad used to have a stained glass store

and had some run ins with Disney over a piece on display in the store (a 12 inch round piece depicting Mickey Mouse as the Sorcerer’s Apprentice – one of dad’s real masterpieces).

About quarterly someone would come in and be a real overbearing ass about trying to buy it (it was NOT for sale – and clearly marked as such). They sometimes eventually fessed up that they were Disney copyright apparatchuk/minions

Fighting stupidity since 1958 (its a much bigger project than originally envisioned).
Confusion will be my epitaph.
It needs more cowbell.

by krome on Jan 20, 2012 12:41 PM CST up reply actions  

It is very common

for well-financed IP holders to claim their rights extend far beyond their real limits and threaten legal action over it. The threat usually works because who can afford to get into litigation with a well-funded plaintiff? (Which is exactly what someone is doing to ToS right now).

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 5:04 PM CST up reply actions  

I like!

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 2:59 PM CST up reply actions  

Actually,

Al Gore is a little scared of him.

SCH, a softer, kinder place to comment on violent sports.

by ChicagoNativeSon on Jan 19, 2012 6:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Just an FYI, Al Gore never said he invented the internet. He said he took the initiative, which in poli-science means getting a vote on an ordinance, for “creating the internet”.

I believe he was one chief sponsor on a couple of bills that would eventually lead to the internet as we know it (although if I’m not mistaken, the French created networks decades before we did). One bill was to connect universities and libraries on a shared network and the other was a bill that opened the internet to commercial traffic.

by aeroplane on Jan 20, 2012 8:45 AM CST up reply actions  

Yes, yes, I know

Kane is lazy.

SCH, a softer, kinder place to comment on violent sports.

by ChicagoNativeSon on Jan 20, 2012 9:17 AM CST up reply actions  

Also

We’ve heard all this “X will destroy the film industry!” before. Remember when the VCR was a giant threat to Hollywood? I don’t because it was before I was born, but the interwebs does. MPAA head Jack Valenti in 1980 in a Congressional hearing:

We are going to bleed and bleed and hemorrhage, unless this Congress at least protects one industry that is able to retrieve a surplus balance of trade and whose total future depends on its protection from the savagery and the ravages of this machine. … I say to you that the VCR is to the American film producer and the American public as the Boston strangler is to the woman home alone.

Admittedly Hollywood was able to turn it into something profitable by selling video tapes, something which I’m not sure if they’ll be able to do this time (but I think they might: charge maybe half the price of a cinema ticket to watch the film online on your PC?).

Because a blog of alcoholics just isn't complete without a Scot.
"The dubstep guy" - DesertHawk

by Germware on Jan 19, 2012 1:51 PM CST up reply actions  

I posed this exact same question

to the head of the Warner Bros music library several years ago. He just hemmed and hawwed until the class bell rang.

by stanfordron on Jan 19, 2012 1:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Awesome

You’re my hero.

Because a blog of alcoholics just isn't complete without a Scot.
"The dubstep guy" - DesertHawk

by Germware on Jan 19, 2012 1:58 PM CST up reply actions  

100 years ago

Free radio was gonna destroy the music industry.

We like our people!

by cliffkoroll on Jan 19, 2012 2:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Well

Even radio companies need permission from the artist/label to play their music, so it is free to “consume” but not free to broadcast, the labels are still making money on it.

Remember a couple years back, the Carolina Hurricanes were given a cease and desist letter for using the song “rock you like a Hurricane” without proper permission.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 2:31 PM CST up reply actions  

My point is

There will be music, even if it’s hard to see what the business model will be, just like 100 years ago.

We like our people!

by cliffkoroll on Jan 19, 2012 2:34 PM CST up reply actions  

I got you,

Just saying…..

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 2:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Actually

the way it works in radio (or at least used to, back when I did that sort of thing), was each period (some markets were quarterly, others annually), you kept a diary of every song you played and submitted it to ASCAP (I don’t recall doing one for BMI). You paid a license based on market size, and that license fee was then proportioned out pro rata to the artists based on your diary submission.

An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. (Jef Mallett)

by 334Rules on Jan 19, 2012 2:55 PM CST up reply actions  

Ah, yes

I knew there were other examples, but I’d forgotten this one. I’m particularly proud of the 1960s British radio ships which strayed just far enough into international waters for their broadcasts of popular songs to be totally legal.

Because a blog of alcoholics just isn't complete without a Scot.
"The dubstep guy" - DesertHawk

by Germware on Jan 19, 2012 3:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Radio Caroline!

The MV Caroline, just off the Suffolk coast.. my Dad tells me the stories of listening to The Who and The Stones on his little transistor radio, under the covers at night…

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 3:07 PM CST up reply actions  

That's the one

Because a blog of alcoholics just isn't complete without a Scot.
"The dubstep guy" - DesertHawk

by Germware on Jan 19, 2012 3:16 PM CST up reply actions  

I think

A book that for pretty good reviews was recently released on this.

We like our people!

by cliffkoroll on Jan 19, 2012 5:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Just watched Pirate Radio last night

Loosely based off of those ships. Great flick.

Never Die Easy.

Basking in the (rare occurances of) Chicago sports glory on Twitter: @nextsportsguy.

by DMelt36 on Jan 20, 2012 12:46 PM CST up reply actions  

and yet, they don't even correct the problem

I’ve already written my elected officials regarding this bill and hope the current bill dies a cruel and unusual death.

by aeroplane on Jan 19, 2012 1:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Legislative drafting is a real art - and takes great skill to do well

I’ve have the privilege (and sufferred through the ordeal) of being involded in ordinance/statute drafting at the local and state levels. It is far harder than one thonks to do it well (so as to address the problem at hand well, and avoid screwing up lots of other things).

A one stop shopping place as to elected representatives for those residing here in Illinois is

http://www.elections.il.gov/DistrictLocator/DistrictOfficialSearchByAddress.aspx

One can enter a full address (a bit clunky because the compnents pieces are all separate fields) or pick the Zip +4 option and get all of your reps at each level by just entering the 9 digits Zip +4 number.

Fighting stupidity since 1958 (its a much bigger project than originally envisioned).
Confusion will be my epitaph.
It needs more cowbell.

by krome on Jan 19, 2012 1:11 PM CST reply actions  

no, but the asked me if I know a GOOD lawyer

who works for free

Fighting stupidity since 1958 (its a much bigger project than originally envisioned).
Confusion will be my epitaph.
It needs more cowbell.

by krome on Jan 19, 2012 1:13 PM CST up reply actions  

There is no shortage of lawyers

here. The problem is, we spend most of our time reading and posting about hockey and very little of it practicing law!

An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. (Jef Mallett)

by 334Rules on Jan 19, 2012 2:12 PM CST up reply actions  

yeah, loved that! Oats rules!

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 1:15 PM CST up reply actions  

THEM PIGGERS ARE GOING ALL THE WAY THIS YEAR!

There are some who call me........Tim?

Tremendously tremendous! Beautius J. Beautius!

Fuck Radim Vrbata.

by allyouyounghockeyplayersoutthere on Jan 19, 2012 3:52 PM CST up reply actions  

you bet your shiny, spandex-clad buttocks they are!

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 3:55 PM CST up reply actions  

No politics?

Does that mean I can’t nominate Andrew Shaw as the Republican Presidential candidate here?

by wardrums on Jan 19, 2012 1:19 PM CST reply actions  

can I nominate BigC?

he can run as whatever he likes.. victory is assured! St Louis will get vetoed! Detroit will be moved to the bottom of Lake Michigan!

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 1:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Ill give detroit to canada

And give St Louis to…Haiti. I mean Haiti cant be any worse than St Louis, right?

Nymphin' Ain't Easy Fly Fishing
Back off man, I'm a scientist

by BigCSouthside on Jan 19, 2012 1:26 PM CST up reply actions  

win!

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 1:27 PM CST up reply actions  

You got my vote!

What about turning it into an munitions range?

"Make the bastard chase you, he will follow."

by RaoulDuke27 on Jan 19, 2012 9:32 PM CST via Android app up reply actions  

Would Haiti be willing ot take it?

Fighting stupidity since 1958 (its a much bigger project than originally envisioned).
Confusion will be my epitaph.
It needs more cowbell.

by krome on Jan 20, 2012 12:42 PM CST up reply actions  

they've suffered enough

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 20, 2012 4:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Republican?

More like a red-blooded socialist the way he dishes out his “love”, and in equal parts.

by aeroplane on Jan 19, 2012 2:05 PM CST up reply actions  

my 2 (Euro) Cents..

I agree with krome about copyright. I lost my job, as did a lot of my friends and colleagues, and am getting to watch the death-throes of a 90-year old bastion of the UK High Street, a company I worked for and loved working for, for over ten years as a result of piracy (or at least with piracy as a main contributing factor).. but hey, I’m a hypocrite who watches illegal streams of Hwaks games.. mainly because i don’t have any other options, but I’m rationalising here.
Anyway.. yes, something needs to be done but this sure ain’t it..

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 1:22 PM CST reply actions  

I think the biggest things is the media companies need to innovate the way

They distribute media. Movie studios have been smart with their Blu-Ray combo packs. They are generally priced the same or, a few dollars more, than the regular DVD version but they give you the Blu-Ray, DVD, and digital download copy. If I recall correctly Blu-Ray sales were actually up in 2011 vs 2010. The RIAA needs to die, because they are still stuck in the 60’s.

by BodomSlayer on Jan 19, 2012 1:44 PM CST up reply actions  

I won't deny it..

the Media industry can be their own worst enemies. Their expectations on pricing (which bricks-and-mortar retailers have to pass on) are insane. It took years of screaming at EMI to make them stop insisting on a trade price for the White Album that would make the retail version £33 Sterling ($50) to you guys.. and yes, the attempt at “Added value” on Blu-Ray is a good idea.. Buena Vista (Disney) have a good thing going with their Blu-Ray/DVD/Digital copy triple packs

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 1:53 PM CST up reply actions  

flec..

and a good read.. I have some thoughts (and slight disagreements).. mainly from being a musician/music retail employee’s point of view..I’ll post them later

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 2:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Fair enough

But from what I understand, and tell me if I’m wrong, don’t musicians make most of their money from doing shows?

by BodomSlayer on Jan 19, 2012 2:07 PM CST up reply actions  

heh

one of the things I was going to put in my reply.. the answer is no. The only bands that make money from touring are the ones at the very, very bottom (six guys sleeping in their van, eating dogfood) and the ones at the very, very top (think yer Stones, Metallica, Springsteen).. for everyone else it’s mostly a loss leader, financed by the label (but coming off the band’s cut) to promote records

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 2:09 PM CST up reply actions  

The music industry

frames its claims as protection for the finacial gain of the artists while failing to inform the world that they then take about 90% of what they protected for the artists.

by stanfordron on Jan 19, 2012 2:15 PM CST up reply actions  

agreed.

but there’s lots of people who need to get paid too.. and I’m not talking freeloaders

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 2:27 PM CST up reply actions  

That sounds EXACTLY why ol Dollar Bill Wirtz wouldn't show home games on TV

How’d THAT work out for him (and his product)?

Furious George! What happened to your beautiful face?!?

by AirTrafficAJ on Jan 20, 2012 11:24 AM CST up reply actions  

This business model sounds doomed

Selling recorded music looks like a very low margin business in the 21st century.

We like our people!

by cliffkoroll on Jan 19, 2012 2:30 PM CST up reply actions  

it is doomed..

and the margins are razor-thin as it is.. then you start taking the cuts for all the people who (deserve) to be paid… and peanuts is the result

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 2:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Music isn't about making money tho

It’s about getting laid, amirite?

We like our people!

by cliffkoroll on Jan 19, 2012 2:42 PM CST up reply actions  

never managed much of either

though, then again, I WAS a bass-player

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 2:43 PM CST up reply actions  

kinda bummed

that there won’t be streams of hawks games on SCH anymore. I have CSN, but no versus. but I’ll deal with it and support stopping SOPA and PIPA

by heyrocky on Jan 19, 2012 1:23 PM CST reply actions  

Check twitter

Follow the right people outside Chicago, and they’ll have streams for you.

Chicagoan in the Lou.

by Mike Martin on Jan 19, 2012 1:30 PM CST up reply actions  

I imagine

if they’re out there, you’ll be able to find them with some creative searching, just not as easily as having someone here simply point them out to you.

An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. (Jef Mallett)

by 334Rules on Jan 19, 2012 2:17 PM CST up reply actions  

if he keeps playing as he is

someday Chuck Norris will be viewed as an early prototype for Andrew Shaw

Fighting stupidity since 1958 (its a much bigger project than originally envisioned).
Confusion will be my epitaph.
It needs more cowbell.

by krome on Jan 20, 2012 12:43 PM CST up reply actions  

This is serious business in here

Take your hockey stuff elsewhere please! There’s simply no time for it. We’ve got a bill to kill, dammit!

by KingKorab on Jan 19, 2012 2:02 PM CST up reply actions  

any thread

that has me proposing BigC run for Office cannot, under any circumstances, be considered “Serious”

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 2:07 PM CST up reply actions  

christ

if i ran for office, i’d make Newt Gingrich look like a fucking saint

Nymphin' Ain't Easy Fly Fishing
Back off man, I'm a scientist

by BigCSouthside on Jan 19, 2012 9:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Intelectual property must be protected

And it is required by the Constitution to be protected. This IMO is NOT the way to do it, to target bystanders and not the actuall purpatrator on the infringements. Piracy is a real issue and needs to be adressed, but against those who supply or consume it, not by an intermediary who offers a broad platform that can be abused and used in a manner it was not intended or designed for. It is not reasonable (by manpower or cost efficiency) to expect any such provider to be able to police or monitor ever action to prevent it, and because of it making them equally liable will only cause these platforms to shutter, and still NOT address the real problem.

On the the flip side, the manufacturers (music, movie, software, etc…) also need to look at their business practices and the cost of their products. MOST people have no desire to engage in Piracy (consumption) by the industry has also made it cost prohibitive in areas to consumers, where they feel the risk of being caught and morally is less then the price of going about aquiring it correctly. When this occurs it means the supply price is higher then the demand, when this occurs you do not increase the price and force people to accept it (because they won’t they will just stop consuming it all together) you drop prices to a better market value.

Piracy needs to be stopped, it is stealing in my mind and according to the law. The industries also need to market their product to demands, and not demand the market adapt to their product, this will never work. These bills address neither of these issues directly, AT MOST they will only move the problem elsewhere, while at the same time damaging huge markets and avenues of legitimate speech and association out of fear, or uncontrollable circumstances and abuses of their systems.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 2:20 PM CST reply actions  

No, IP protection is not required by the Constitution.

Congress is given the power to protect but it appears to be optional – See Article I; Section 8.

by stanfordron on Jan 19, 2012 2:27 PM CST up reply actions  

I am very familiar wit Article I Section 8

Clause 8
“To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries”

This requires Congress to protect them with Copyright, trademarks, patents etc….

Clause 18
“To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers…”

This allows Congress to make Laws to bring into force the 17 previous clauses (plus any other power granted in the Constitution).

These make this things protected, and make piracy illegal.

IP’s are protected for starters by the 4th Amendment, but also by extension the 9th, 10th and 14th Amendments to be secure from unwarranted search/seizure, protection of our “other rights” our privilages and immunities, and off limits to Congress by not being a delegated power (unless it is commerce that crosses state or national borders, not just information).

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 2:39 PM CST up reply actions  

I think that is more

wishful thinking than an accurate interpretation of the Constitution.

by stanfordron on Jan 19, 2012 2:46 PM CST up reply actions  

I depends on POV I guess

Because it should not be an issue, because it is quite clear (Slaughter House royally screwed up the 14th for 130+ years)

But good news is, SCOTUS in several recent rulings (MacDonald vs Chicago for instance) are reaffirming some of these aspects.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 2:52 PM CST up reply actions  

These views are based on

The perception and meaning by those who ratified it (not the drafters). It is not the prevailing line, but this interperatation is far from “wishful”, four Justices on SCOTUS have all written or advocated similar/same positions.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 6:37 PM CST up reply actions  

I’m glad to see that you believe piracy to be the act of theft.

See TMFF, we may have divergent political beliefs, but we can always agree on the meaning of a word!

by aeroplane on Jan 19, 2012 2:29 PM CST up reply actions  

yup

piracy is theft. and, just for a laugh, this is what the front of the Very First HMV store, opened in 1922 by Sir Edmund Elgar, where the Beatles cut a demo in 1962, looked like a day before it closed.. note the emptiness of those shelves…

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 2:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Working in retail

It makes me sad when you see a store reduced to this.

by BodomSlayer on Jan 19, 2012 2:40 PM CST up reply actions  

mate, it was heartbreaking

store with 110 people working in it, all like a big happy family.. and really good at out jobs.. the slow three-month death of that iconic store was a killer. Jimmy Page, Elton John, Paul Weller, Michael Caine, Bobby Gillespie, Noel Gallagher and Bill Nighy all used that as their local record store..

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 2:43 PM CST up reply actions  

That is absolutely sad

I still love buying physical albums. There is something about cracking that seal and the scent of the booklet and the excitement of still popping it in and listening to it (before burning it to my HDD obviously). I choose to buy mostly from small, local shops, but when you listen to the music I do you’re not gonna find it in a major store :-p

by BodomSlayer on Jan 19, 2012 2:45 PM CST up reply actions  

see, in the UK it's different..

like in the HMV I work in now.. just spotted an album by Gallhammer.. sticker on the cover says “Blackened Doom from Japan’s cult duo” (they’re girls).. wanna buy!

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 2:48 PM CST up reply actions  

I have a local shop by my house

That I try to order from so I can give him the business rather than a major label store. I really need to get in there and order the last Agalloch album that came out. Most major stores around here don’t sell good metal. FYE has some but they charge an arm and a leg for it. I can just order from CM Distro and wait a week and get most albums five dollars less than what they charge.

by BodomSlayer on Jan 19, 2012 2:50 PM CST up reply actions  

you might be interested..

this is a video of the last transaction in the store before we closed for good.. DJ Alan, this weird little Irish dude had been a customer for thirty years and very much wanted to be the last one.. so we let him. The guy serving him is Mr. Keith, who had 29 years of service in that store.. with “Bridge Over Troubled Water” on the PA (myself and one of the managers spent ages that week picking out a “final” song!)

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150439299365603

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 3:33 PM CST up reply actions  

So sad but at the same time

It was nice to see everyone in such cheerful spirits.

by BodomSlayer on Jan 19, 2012 3:38 PM CST up reply actions  

I remember when Tower Records had their fire sale

I picked up some good albums. Got me into Centinex, Falkenbach, and some rare Darkthrone stuff. I was quite happy

by BodomSlayer on Jan 19, 2012 3:41 PM CST up reply actions  

heh

we weren’t having a fire sale.. because the company was still going, it was just our store that was shutting.. and we enjoyed telling the ‘Vultures’ (no offence, gentlemen!) this..

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 3:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Its still

A damn shame that things like that happen. Especially to such a historic location.

by BodomSlayer on Jan 19, 2012 3:55 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

we need the Nimrod theme from the Enigma variations to accompany the image

/s, more often than not

by flyersfaninchicago on Jan 19, 2012 5:51 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't look at it like "politics" I am fed up with politics

I view it as philosophies, mainly since my own personel feeling if I like it or not does not effect my opinion or defense if it should be legal or not, or is protected or not.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 2:42 PM CST up reply actions  

In short

I don’t care as much for political POV, I am concerned about the philosophy of the role of government. Liberal or Conservative I don’t care, as long as it fits in the role of Government (philosphy) I feel is correct and argue for.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 2:54 PM CST up reply actions  

If you are talking about political philosophy,

you shouldn’t use the concept of “conservative.” It is not a philosophy. It is a direction. The opposite of liberal is authoritarian or paternalistic.

by stanfordron on Jan 19, 2012 2:58 PM CST up reply actions  

i’ve seen these points made by Paul Rosenberg(?) before. Thought it was an interesting topic.

by aeroplane on Jan 19, 2012 3:01 PM CST up reply actions  

For example,

So-called Conservatives in our country are paternalistic/authoritarian when to comes to religion and morals but they are liberals on economics and guns. That is why it is not really a term that can be used to describe a location on hte political spectrum.

by stanfordron on Jan 19, 2012 3:04 PM CST up reply actions  

let's be careful to keep this non-partisan, gents?

just a suggestion!

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 3:08 PM CST up reply actions  

That was non-partisan.

That is what the Conservatives says they are for.

by stanfordron on Jan 19, 2012 3:09 PM CST up reply actions  

you know what I mean...

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 3:11 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think TMFF was..

if i read correctly he’s a Libertarian? Or leaning that way? Which is more a Philosophic distaste for Government in general (shared by Anarchists.. in the actual sense of the word rather than people from Oregon who set fire to Vancouver last summer).. so Conservative/Liberal is relatively meaningless..

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 3:04 PM CST up reply actions  

the whole liberal/conservative divide

is a farce anyways. Too bad that’s where Canada’s political discourse seems to be heading as well.

by aeroplane on Jan 19, 2012 3:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes, I am Libertarian

But it does not mean I have a distaste of government or even close to anarchist. I feel the role of it should be limited and its primary purpose is to secure our rights from each other and foreign and domestic threats, but can only operate with our consent and by its binding contract from us (a Constitution).

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 3:32 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't want to get into politics whatsoever...

here at SCH and I’m not about to interject my own thoughts, but I am curious. Who’s government does what you’d like best?

by aeroplane on Jan 19, 2012 3:34 PM CST up reply actions  

I think ours is great

IF it followed the rules and stayed within the limits we set in place for it. As for others, I have no idea, I do not research other governments since they do not affect me, I am concerned only about ours (US).

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 3:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Are you really only concerned about ours?

by aeroplane on Jan 19, 2012 3:42 PM CST up reply actions  

MY personell belief is

All men should be free, to be able to chose their own path with interference or leave from anybody else. So I am concerned for all mankind in that respect, but also feel they have the right to chose not only their own path for themselves, but for their government as well, provided it secures those basic rights.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 3:44 PM CST up reply actions  

not asking about your personal beliefs...

I sort of find it fascinating that you only care about our government (structure). Wasn’t sure if you were being honest.

by aeroplane on Jan 19, 2012 3:45 PM CST up reply actions  

I am an American and very proud of it

Naturally my government is of the primary concern, but to see any person around the World denied the most basic Natural rights does bother me.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 3:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes...

I get that. I’m just amazed that your interest starts and ends with the U.S. system of governance.

Glad you’ve taken a liking to it, though. I suppose most Americans don’t have a vested interest in their own government.

by aeroplane on Jan 19, 2012 3:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Historically

I have interest in the creating of Democratically elected and Republican governments.

My main reason for not a huge interest in others is, who am I to tell or criticize others for their choice (if it is the peoples choice)?

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 3:54 PM CST up reply actions  

yes, you do

I’m a big student of “Voter Turnout” and you guys show up at the polls (it varies in elections where there aren’t State-Centric slates on the ballot) about as much as the rest of the “developed” world.. although I think the Australians have the best idea, with compulsory voting.. the price we pay for living in a Democracy is to have to drag our lazy asses down to the polling booth..

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 3:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Voter turn out never bothers me

Not everybody pays attention to it (which is fine). I would rather have 40% turnout by people who have learned about the choices to make a choice, rather then have 90% where over half are only voting on “recognition” or some similar factor.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 4:07 PM CST up reply actions  

and look at how peachy the world is being run

An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. (Jef Mallett)

by 334Rules on Jan 19, 2012 4:02 PM CST up reply actions  

not really

U.S. generally gets a 55% voter turnout doing general elections (~60% during presidential years). That rate has little to do with people who are actually vested in the process, though. I tend to think we’re a fairly apathetic nation when it comes to governance.

Here’s a list of voting participation rates elsewhere:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout#International_differences

by aeroplane on Jan 19, 2012 4:06 PM CST up reply actions  

sorry. The 60% figure was during the 2008 election. General elections usually hover around 55% voter turn out in this country. Drops to about 40-45% in off year elections.

by aeroplane on Jan 19, 2012 4:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Which is disappointing because people’s votes have more weight when they go towards their own district representative rather than a presidential candidate.

by mad-hatter on Jan 19, 2012 4:14 PM CST up reply actions  

you'd love Ireland..

the Constitution here can only be changed by a full plebiscite…

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 3:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Ah, but your government are useless gobshites

Look, it’s in one of your papers*:

*or red-top rags, depending on your POV.

Because a blog of alcoholics just isn't complete without a Scot.
"The dubstep guy" - DesertHawk

by Germware on Jan 19, 2012 3:39 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

oh, they are, believe me..

much like yours… our constitution is pretty good though..

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 3:40 PM CST up reply actions  

heh

Gobshite…. That’s an awesome word

Curator of Dark Side of the Five Hole
I like our guys, especially these guys.
Unapologetic apologist for hockey South of the Mason/Dixon

by DesertHawk on Jan 19, 2012 3:40 PM CST up reply actions  

it's wonderful, isn't it?

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 3:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Shitehawk is good, too

Because a blog of alcoholics just isn't complete without a Scot.
"The dubstep guy" - DesertHawk

by Germware on Jan 19, 2012 3:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Hah

you other side of the ponders are so much more creative with your swears.

Curator of Dark Side of the Five Hole
I like our guys, especially these guys.
Unapologetic apologist for hockey South of the Mason/Dixon

by DesertHawk on Jan 19, 2012 3:42 PM CST up reply actions  

an Irish version

“You scuttering gobsheen!” (scutter being slang for Cow Diarrhea)

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 3:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Shithawks, you say?

They’re coming, Bubbles.

There are some who call me........Tim?

Tremendously tremendous! Beautius J. Beautius!

Fuck Radim Vrbata.

by allyouyounghockeyplayersoutthere on Jan 19, 2012 4:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Well done, Timmah.

"I remember trying to open presents before Daniel because we always got the same presents. I wanted to have the surprise."
— Henrik Sedin

tweet tweet

by eightyseven on Jan 19, 2012 5:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Naturally. :)

There are some who call me........Tim?

Tremendously tremendous! Beautius J. Beautius!

Fuck Radim Vrbata.

by allyouyounghockeyplayersoutthere on Jan 19, 2012 6:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Better to just call yourself a liberal.

Libertarian is not a philosophy. It is a political sub-group of the Republican party whose members consistently vote for candidates who promise to be authoritarian in many respects.

by stanfordron on Jan 19, 2012 3:38 PM CST up reply actions  

I am personally a VERY very Conservative Person

But I do not believe it should or can be imposed on anybody. Individual Liberty comes first.

Libertarian is a philosophy in the sense of Locke and Jefferson, among others. To me it is the genesis of political process by setting up the bounds and terms of it.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 3:46 PM CST up reply actions  

while I'm defintely

on the other side of the Political spectrum to TMFF.. I agree with him here.. admittedly, most people who call themselves ‘Libertarians’ are just using it wrongly, the same thing applies to people who call themselves “Anarchists” on the Left.. without any true understanding of what that means..

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 3:54 PM CST up reply actions  

yep

I can agree with this.

I don’t bother labeling myself since it’s a cheap out, IMO. Maybe that’s a product of growing up with many ultra-conservative friends (many I’m still friends with) in North Houston who really did/still do some whacked out shit. People are people and how they think doesn’t always reflect their actions.

by aeroplane on Jan 19, 2012 3:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Wasn't Locke

about the social contract? If you call that liberal, it is just the liberty to have given up your liberty before you were born. That is not my definition of liberty.

by stanfordron on Jan 19, 2012 3:57 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes he was as was Montesquieu who took it further in "The Spirit of Laws" (another fav. of mine)

We should not have to give up Liberty to secure it, and no one today, yesterday or tomorrow has the Natural Right to take anybody else’s, it is “unalienable” or unsperable, nobody has the power to separate anyone’s Liberty from another.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 4:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Liberal

In the “classic” 17th-19th century sense yes. By the modern use, no. This is a good point to me, of why words in how they were used in their period are more important then how they are used today, and to twist them from one era and apply another era’s use of it, you lose the original meaning AND context of the very word, phrase or statement.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 4:13 PM CST up reply actions  

One of my favorites is the term

“missionary position.” Originally it was about the far-out and crazy sex lives of the Christian missionaries (having turned their backs, so-to-speak, on the usual sexual position of the previous millenia.) Now, everybody uses that position and the word has come to mean plain or ordinary sex – exactly the opposite of its original meaning.

by stanfordron on Jan 19, 2012 4:18 PM CST up reply actions  

My big ones these days are

Regulate(d), Commerce, Militia, General Welfare, establish, infringe, among others.

What they meant in 1787 & 1791, is not how they are used today, but are applied by today’s standards regardless.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 4:27 PM CST up reply actions  

authoritarian?

I don’t think you’re joking, so I have to ask what you are referring to in the “many respects” you mention. I’m honestly curious, because I’ve always thought of them as being extremely pro-individual rights (legalizing drugs, etc.). Maybe I’m missing something?

Let's Go Hawks!

by K_Dog on Jan 19, 2012 4:03 PM CST up reply actions  

this is actually a good question. I too was trying to figure out ron’s angle on this.

by aeroplane on Jan 19, 2012 4:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Actions speak louder than words.

Their words say they are for liberty but at the same time they have consistently supported candidates that have been taking away our liberties at a frightening rate. For example, they say they are for legalizing drugs but they consistently vote for candidates who promise tighter drug laws. They claim to favor the non-establishment clause but consistently vote for candidates who refuse to even acknowledge it as part of the Constitution.

Take Ron Paul for example – a consistent liberal. He gets booed by main-stream Republicans. For the most part, his stated positions are far more consistent with the Democratic platform. Yet, at the end of the day, he and his minions will vote Republican, as usual.

by stanfordron on Jan 19, 2012 4:24 PM CST up reply actions  

BOTH sides have very authoritarian tendencies

To say or even imply the opposing side does not do the same is Horse Shit. It can easily be said on the Democratic side, money is not seen as property and something that should be protected as strongly as a person’s home, but is rather seen as a source of “revenue” for them to spend how they wish.

Neither side can claim the high road in NOT being authoritarian.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 4:30 PM CST up reply actions  

I’m not sure it can easily be said that the Democratic side sees money as revenue and not property. That can’t really be said with clarity about any one political party or person.

Government has to provide certain services. Those services need to be paid through taxes. This is a process that both major parties and every mainline economist agree upon.

by aeroplane on Jan 19, 2012 4:50 PM CST up reply actions  

It was a quick point, not an all encompassing one

That goes into the role of government (what should it be spent on). The point was, neither side can claim a lack of “authoritarian” positions in the party platforms

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 5:21 PM CST up reply actions  

This SOPA and PIPA is an example

(Sponsored-Co sponsored by both parties) of an authoritarian act (as was the NDAA), it hold people responsible for others actions and not their own, or with the NDAA suspends Posse Cometatus and Ha-beaus Corpus with ever being provided the legitimate power and being specifically prohibited from both. Both sides are equally contemptuous in these bills.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 5:27 PM CST up reply actions  

but that wasn’t his point. Democrats and Republicans don’t negate authoritarian rolls in their platforms. Libertarians do.

by aeroplane on Jan 19, 2012 5:34 PM CST up reply actions  

No following you

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 5:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Got you,

And have to 100% disagree. Freedom to make your own choices, except we will “regulate” on how you can spend your money? That is authoritarian and is also in conflict with other positions of their platform in Liberty concepts.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 5:39 PM CST up reply actions  

just one final FYI (since I gave you the last word on the last palomino topic). I think both major parties in the U.S. can take on issues that seem authoritarian (to varying degrees). I get the impression you think I’m siding with one party or the other when I’m not.

If you want to continue you this, it should go to PM.

by aeroplane on Jan 19, 2012 5:50 PM CST up reply actions  

It was not you

It was stanfordron who implied it, you seemed to be backing or defending his position, which is why I replied to you.

Can we agree, both sides suck on the Hill?

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 5:51 PM CST up reply actions  

we've dragged that wee pony

of the Palomino version out for a trot… good points all round, gents, and well debated.. but let’s knock it on the head here?

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 5:40 PM CST up reply actions  

agreed

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 5:45 PM CST up reply actions  

to the Good Guys!

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 5:46 PM CST up reply actions  

For the record

I think your glib diagnosis of liberal/conservative/libertarian, spanning several comments here, is so full of shit I don’t know where to begin.

Palomino.

We like our people!

by cliffkoroll on Jan 19, 2012 5:28 PM CST up reply actions  

lol

I certainly do not agree with it either (mainly the bias that only Republicans are hypocrites aspect). I have no issue arguing for or against points, but I do not like being misrepresented by other in what my opinion-belief or stance is (being a Libertarian, it happens quite a bit! lol). I would agree it is misrepresentative to many who happen to be a GOP supporter (though those issues are present), and ignores similar troubles the opposing side also has.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 5:34 PM CST up reply actions  

yup

but I go with Cliff and call a Minor Polo.. uhh.. hang on.. Palomino..

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 5:38 PM CST up reply actions  

I see

Baseball gloves, Goalie Pads and baseballs in this picture, all in the raw unrefined form!

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 5:59 PM CST up reply actions  

I see what you did there

way to stay on topic

SCH, a softer, kinder place to comment on violent sports.

by ChicagoNativeSon on Jan 19, 2012 6:43 PM CST up reply actions  

this is better

than all my lousy photoshops rolled together..

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 6:44 PM CST up reply actions  

it’s a pirated Van Gogh

/s, more often than not

by flyersfaninchicago on Jan 19, 2012 6:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Is that a Center Ice stream?

"I remember trying to open presents before Daniel because we always got the same presents. I wanted to have the surprise."
— Henrik Sedin

tweet tweet

by eightyseven on Jan 19, 2012 6:45 PM CST up reply actions  

boom-tish!

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 6:46 PM CST up reply actions  

I see a year's supply of paste for Eager

Maybe, just once, someone will call me 'Sir' without adding, 'You're making a scene."

by cdz3210 on Jan 19, 2012 6:46 PM CST up reply actions  

COURSE it's Eager's

Everyone else colours in one direction.

"I remember trying to open presents before Daniel because we always got the same presents. I wanted to have the surprise."
— Henrik Sedin

tweet tweet

by eightyseven on Jan 19, 2012 6:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Just for the record,

I did not write anything about Republicans being hypocrites. I did write that Libertarians are hypocrites for being wed to the Republican party – especially since the Democrats agree with them on a lot more issues. I also did not discuss the degree to which the Democrats are also authoritarian except that they were less so than the Republicans.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 11:22 AM CST up reply actions  

I stand corrected,

But that is how it read to me.

My Appologies

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 1:25 PM CST up reply actions  

I certainly understood that...

but I do disagree that libertarians are closer aligned to Democrats in principal. Not sure those lines are delineated clearly enough.

In the end, Libertarians will choose who they think is the lesser of two evils at the ballot box. Same deal with those of us who fall left of center (Democratic platform). I don’t think of myself a hypocrite when I’m forced to vote for a Democrat.

by aeroplane on Jan 20, 2012 4:53 PM CST up reply actions  

It depends on who is in control

of the Democratic Party. Right now it is pretty close to 50/50 – paternalists and liberals. If the Paul people were to move to the Democratic Party, that would really limit the power of the paternalists. On the other hand, the Paulites are such a small minority in the Republican Party with really no where to grow because the other Republicans completely oppose them on so many issues.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 5:20 PM CST up reply actions  

mostly regarding real Libertarians. Do they really support Paul? I don’t think so. Paul also represents a nice little chunk of younger generation Republicans who align themselves with the GOP but are also more likely to support socially progressive issues like gay marriage. I don’t really find this example to be a strong one, nor do I find these Paulites to be dogmatic Libertarians, per se.

by aeroplane on Jan 20, 2012 6:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Let me ask you,

where do you think the Republicans (RINOS and Fundies – for lack of better terms) and the Libertarians agree?

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 7:03 PM CST up reply actions  

regulation in business, gun policy, lessening social welfare and Social Security policy. Universal healthcare (or lack of it). Lower taxes based on the assumption of less government (even though you and I know the GOPs position isn’t necessarily smaller government). Less power for the central government in creating public lands and other federal policy.

by aeroplane on Jan 20, 2012 7:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Not a bad start

It is the execution of these principles that comes into question (or the lack of it).

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 7:13 PM CST up reply actions  

On more then you may think

But it is cautious. It really varies from politician to politician, not a platform, that is too broad.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 7:12 PM CST up reply actions  

I think you are a little behind the times.

You are talking about your grandfather and your father’s Republican Party, not the one we have today. When your grandfather’s liberal Republican Party switched their platform to accommodate the Fundies they underwent a significant change in philosophy. The major pro-liberty forces were squeezed out. For example, most Republican Supreme Court nominees before that were libertarians (social and economic). In fact, the Justices the Republicans are most opposed to today, were originally Republican nominees – Stevens, Warren, Brennan, etc. The decision they most wanted to overturn were Republican appointee decisions – the Exclusionary Rule, Miranda, Roe v. Wade.

Once they got rid of the liberals, there was a second transition in the Republican Party – the fight between the free-marketers and the monopolists. The Reaganites were the free-marketers. The Bushies were the monopolists. The Reganites lost and no longer have any power in the party. The best evidence of the difference? Reagan took AT&T apart. Junior put it back together, Can’t get much different than that.

I think they party you are describing still has components of past Republican philosophies that are no longer part of the party.

Today’s Republican’s are for far more government than we ever had before. They are definitely anti-individual freedom. Substantive due process (individual liberty) has been denounced bu the Republican Court. The only right they enforce is equal protection – the right to be the same as everyone else. That hardly jibes with your view of the party platform.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 7:26 PM CST up reply actions  

So cowardly and moronic

In fact, that you adopted the strategy yourself.

You misunderstand me. Spouting comic book political theory on a hockey blog is kinda silly, no? Engaging that conversation here would have been moronic. But the fact is, there was a little band of folks supporting this view and no dissenters, so I wanted to register dissent without moronically getting drawn into a dumb conversation.

By cowardly, I presume you mean I was actually afraid of taking on the debate directly. Believe what you want to believe.

We like our people!

by cliffkoroll on Jan 20, 2012 7:38 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I said Palomino!!!!

GOOD DAY, SIR!

I SAID,GOOD DAY SIR!!

Chicagoan in the Lou.

by Mike Martin on Jan 20, 2012 2:48 PM CST up reply actions  

What I was saying was

Conservative or Liberal political stance I don’t care what it is. The philosophy of government to me is more important. A candidate can be either or, it how they view the role of government I look at first and foremost.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 3:27 PM CST up reply actions  

i don't care, TMFF

not sure why you responded to my initial reply the way you did. I was just giving you a hard time about your interpretation of the word “piracy”. Is there really any other way to view that word in the context we’re talking about it?

by aeroplane on Jan 19, 2012 2:59 PM CST up reply actions  

I was just adding to it. lol

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 3:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Politics

is the manner by which we govern ourselves.

I get a bit exhausted by folks complaining about “government” as if it’s some external entity, when in fact government is us. That whole “of the people, by the people, for the people” thing, you know? The fact that enough folks have become disillusioned to the extent that they’ve dropped out of the process, leaving the actual work of selecting representatives and then governing to others does not render government inherently good or evil. Government merely reflects who we are as a people (for better or worse).

Having spent the better part of my life involved in government in multiple different ways, I don’t think it’s naivete to suggest that we would be significantly better off as a nation if we did two things: take the time to educate ourselves about those folks who run for office, and then actually vote.

An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. (Jef Mallett)

by 334Rules on Jan 19, 2012 3:04 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I start one step further back -

educate people about political philosphy and political power so they can properly interpret what they learn about the candidates.

by stanfordron on Jan 19, 2012 3:07 PM CST up reply actions  

Well

now you’re just talking crazy talk.

An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. (Jef Mallett)

by 334Rules on Jan 19, 2012 3:12 PM CST up reply actions  

...but the government controls education

so why teach us sheeple anything? Keep us in a dark safe place, control what we read and hear, just to be sure we don’t cause too much of a fuss.

by KingKorab on Jan 19, 2012 3:16 PM CST up reply actions  

I object

to the infantile image of humanity implied here.

We like our people!

by cliffkoroll on Jan 19, 2012 5:30 PM CST up reply actions  

I suppose you're right

at least until our government – of the people, by the people, for the people – passes out the soma. That “for the people” one always cracks me up. Good old honest Abe. He wouldn’t tell a lie now, would he?

by KingKorab on Jan 19, 2012 9:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Um,

Educate by whom? I am 100% self educated. I read more books and such then I could start to list, and formed my own opinions and beliefs. Do people get “educated” from “my” POV, or do they get educated by another, or another and on?

The first thing people need to educate themselves on, it is their onus, nobody else’s job or responsibility to learn this it is the people’s at the individual level alone. Then go learn it, by yourself, in a group, however, but learn it and think for yourself, do NOT let others do the thinking for you.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 5:37 PM CST up reply actions  

pretty impressive. Imagine how great you’d have been if only your parents taught you a thing or two.

by aeroplane on Jan 19, 2012 5:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Smartass! lol

I hope you understood that to mean, in the philosophy sense! Of course they molded me, but on the whole, I self learned the philosophy I advocate, the morals came from my parents.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 5:53 PM CST up reply actions  

i find philosophies to be like asses

and not one is completely right or wrong. I find the most hardened philosophies to be problematic though since life and societies change and are malleable.

by aeroplane on Jan 20, 2012 8:56 AM CST up reply actions  

They have really big ears

and an annoying bray?

Curator of Dark Side of the Five Hole
I like our guys, especially these guys.
Unapologetic apologist for hockey South of the Mason/Dixon

by DesertHawk on Jan 20, 2012 12:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Truth be told

being self-educated is like being half educated. You learn to see and understand things from your perspective but you deny yourself the perspectives of peers simultaneously studying the same material. The proof is in your posts. I find the more familiar a person is with different philosophies and understanding their pluses and minuses, the less likely they are to take hard-core positions on one side or the other on philosophical issues. You do not seem to have that difficulty. That is indicative of a narrow education; not a well-rounded one.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 11:30 AM CST up reply actions  

I'm assuming you are referring to higher education.

So, you become a more well-rounded individual sitting around lecture hall with a bunch of other hungover twentysomethings than you would with self study?

See if you can guess what I am now.

by IndianHeadCrest on Jan 20, 2012 11:41 AM CST up reply actions  

Clearly,

I went to a very different school than the one you envision.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 11:52 AM CST up reply actions  

Not that part of it.

Plus, I’m more talking about my undergrad at the other end of the educational spectrum – Cal State Fullerton.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 12:01 PM CST up reply actions  

I think you become more well-rounded

by reading/learning about both sides of an issue, whether you’re 18 or 48. Reading only things you agree with just reinforces what you already think, rather than opening you up to other aspects of an issue.

by Katherine215 on Jan 20, 2012 12:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Plus,

not just learning all sides to an issue but also learning all takes on each perspective.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 12:44 PM CST up reply actions  

A lot of people

don’t even read/learn about one side of a story. I think they get their information from sensationalized headlines on websites and draw their own conclusions from there.

Maybe, just once, someone will call me 'Sir' without adding, 'You're making a scene."

by cdz3210 on Jan 20, 2012 12:56 PM CST up reply actions  

absolutely.

I’m a little ashamed to admit I sometimes fall into this category. It feels like there are so many stories/issues/topics, it’s hard to keep up with one perspective, let alone learn about multiple perspectives and make an informed opinion.

by Katherine215 on Jan 20, 2012 1:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Guilty

But my speculative conversations are much more interesting than anything that actually happens, I’m sure

Afroman likes tall cans... of Daisy Cutter Pale Ale

by OMFS88 on Jan 20, 2012 5:31 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

This

which is why I try to go to the opposing team blogs whenever we play them. We know what we think is BS and what is go-worthy, but what do our opponents think?

/hockey’d

I wanted the Packers to win the Super Bowl, Megan!

by hairhelmet on Jan 20, 2012 2:07 PM CST up reply actions  

I like watching the other team's broadcast

for the same reason – unless their broadcasters are morons – like the Scum’s guys.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 2:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Not true,

100% is probably incorrect since I do have education from many other avenues. I do read and study opposing views very much, and seek out their POV to compare it too my own. I happen to disagree with them. Because I do not agree, does not mean “half” educated. To only follow or listen those you agree with I will fully agree is not helpful. The point was, people need to educate themselves, learn things on their own and not let people tell them how it is, discover that yourself. That is what I mean by 100% self educated. It does not mean to not pursue other sources or institutions for education (I have done this), but make up your own mind.

I do read and study opposing views very much, and seek out their POV to compare it too my own, it helps me understand my beliefs more, and in turn also strengthens them because I happen to disagree with them. Because I do not agree, does not mean “half” educated.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 1:17 PM CST up reply actions  

It depends.

I know many people who are sure they have compared both sides of the argument. Rupert told them what the Republicans stand for and Rupert told them what the Democrats stand for. They fully believe they have compared both claims and, not surprisingly, determined the Republicans to be correct. The same goes for many Democrats (except the Rupert Murdoch part of it).

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 1:55 PM CST up reply actions  

This is too true for too many

Too many completely dismiss the opposing side and do not listen to it, while others only state things to inflame the other side. I do not have to agree with them, and often don’t, but to a well founded argument (that does not try to just throw out the latest bullets, or insult) I love listening too, I WANT to know where they are coming from and break it down.

Several years ago, my set of beliefs or such was night and day compared to today, because I decided to learn more on my own.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 3:19 PM CST up reply actions  

The more philosophy I study

the less secure I am in my political/economic beliefs.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 3:28 PM CST up reply actions  

The same

That is why I no longer consider myself wither a part of the GOP or Conservative. I live and conduct myself conservative, but do not just support it on the whole. MY economic ideals also shifted allot as well, from a form of central planning, to a free open market.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 3:32 PM CST up reply actions  

But how do you define free-market?

The Adam Smith definition: unconstrained competition for the production and consumption of goods and services

The Republican definition: Everybody should be free to do what they want in the market.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 3:47 PM CST up reply actions  

“free market” has really nothing to do with our constitution. Unfortunately, a lot of money goes into making sure our government and media adheres to and promotes “free market” principals.

whatever. We could do better than that IMO.

by aeroplane on Jan 20, 2012 5:03 PM CST up reply actions  

I would argue if you follow the Constitution as it was designed and understood by those who ratify it

The ONLY result you can have is a free market. The Constitution is a free market document, when followed how it was understood.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 5:08 PM CST up reply actions  

you mean...

when followed (the constitution) as you understand it.

A hybrid system of free market + regulations is perfectly viable (and is present in much of the Western world). Nothing about this system runs counter to our U.S. constitution.

by aeroplane on Jan 20, 2012 5:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Other then the power was never granted to Congress to do just that

And NO not as I understood it, those who ratified it. They were VERY VERY clear on this very specific point on how they understood it, and potential fears of things lead to the demand for the 9th and 10th Amendments.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 5:24 PM CST up reply actions  

thankfully throughout our history, our judicial system has interpreted the constitution in ways that allows for regulating business.

by aeroplane on Jan 20, 2012 5:36 PM CST up reply actions  

I say, unfortunatley the Judicial system has not correctly interpreted the Constitution

Throughout our history, not just in regards to regulation, but many other things as well. IMO ONLY the people can grant powers to government, the government cannot lay claim to them themselves. They must operate within the bounds the people have laid out, not adjust those bounds to their or any others desire unless by the consent of the people, by Amendment.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 5:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Are you familiar

with McCullough v. Maryland? How do you counter CJ Marshall’s claim?

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 5:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Vaguelly,

I have only recently begun to review SCOTUS to see how it was interpreted after the fact. I would have to go more in depth in the opinions from that one on to respond properly.

But on the start, on the principle of a subject at SCOTUS level, I despise the use of Stare Decisis, IMO it should always be viewed anew independent of previous rulings. This way we keep as close to the power granted as possible and do not drift we subsequent rulings based on precedence and not the motivation/understanding. If you have not figured it out, like Justices Scalia, Thomas and the Chief Justice Roberts, Original Meaning to me is of the most importance to ensure government operates within the consented power.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 5:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Following the use of stare decisis

through the years is almost comical. For the most part, when the aristocracy takes power (whether it was by use of the Republican or Democratic party at the time – they have been members of either) they do not expect it to be long-lived (why the hell would voters give themselves masters?) Yet, they want their changes to stick. So, they demand things stay the same for ever. That is why they defend stare decisis. Yet, it keeps them from changing some of the things they want to change. Inside joke I guess.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 6:25 PM CST up reply actions  

When SCOTUS Fucks Up

And it gets readdressed, they need to unfuck it. Why did it take 140+ years to even start unfucking Slaughter House and the 14th Amendment? Dread Scott, should have been overturned and not have to wait until the 14th amendment (13th actually in true substance), Plessy vs Ferguson was crap for 70+ years. Stare Decisis let these stand, if the Constitution had been followed, none of these should have happened at all.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 6:29 PM CST up reply actions  

You have to understand

the aristocratic mind-set. For example, they love Citizens United. One would expect, if the Dems ever take control of the Court again, they will want to overturn CU. Stare decisis is the best argument the aristocracy will have at that point in time. Looking ahead, they are willing to put up with things they do not like (Roe v Wade, Miranda, the Exclusionary Rule) so they can argue the stare decisis position in the future.

Meanwhile, don’t fret. Stare decisis is not what it is cracked-up to be. Enough exceptions can be created to make a decision disappear without actually removing it from the books (Like the current Republican Court has done with Miranda, the Exclusionary Rule, the 4th Amendment, the 5th Amendment, the 8th Amendment, and I could go on and on and on.)

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 6:36 PM CST up reply actions  

In McCullough,

the State of Maryland wanted to tax a branch of the Fed. The Supreme Court said no because the power to tax is the power to destroy. Since MD lacked the power to destroy the Fed branch, they must also lack the power to tax it.

That’s no big deal. But, through the years, its converse has had major implications. Since the power to tax is the power to destroy, if a sovereign is given the power to tax, that logically includes the power to destroy. The power to regulate is merely a subset of the power to destroy. Therefore any government that is given the power to tax something is also given the power to regulate it.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 6:30 PM CST up reply actions  

If so

I call it a bad ruling or in the least a poorly written ruling. This conflicts with the Founders view of what Governments primary role was, “to protect and secure these (unalienable) rights”, which include property and to engage in trade. It conflicts totally in implying the Constitution gives government the power to destroy property and also directly violates the 5th amendment protection as well.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 6:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Unalienable rights

and life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are from the Declaration of Independence. That is not a recognized source of U.S. law. It was not created by anyone with sovereign powers nor passed by the voters.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 6:39 PM CST up reply actions  

You are missing the concept.

The DOI gives the MOTIVATIONS for the Constitution. To seperate the motivation from the document is to miss the scope of intention and understanding. The DOI has no binding power in itself, but it certainly gives insight to motivations, and just like the Federalist and Anti-Federalists papers are often cited to determine the motivation in rulings, so is the DOI because it describes the understood role and limit of governments.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 6:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Many of us

would say the same of your failure to understand the Constitution in its proper context by comparing change by change to the Articles of Confederation. The Articles were far more indicative of the original beliefs of the FF. When they discovered they weren’t working out right, they changed the Articles into the Constitution as a way to give the fed greater authority. Those who argue the Constitution was created to limit authority are the ones who take it completely out-of-context.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 6:57 PM CST up reply actions  

The irony

I posted this one year ago today

An expansion of authority does not mean complete authority. The most significant changes in power at the Federal level(not government structure) dealt with ensuring actions between the states and with foreign nations were regular. Remember it was the Mt. Vernon Compact at its problem that directly lead to the Convention of 1787. On an intra state level, very little changed, some things became prohibited to the States (mainly in how they interacted with other or foreign nations), and very little of intrastate power was specifically given to the Federal Government, and what was, still required state consent or request.

The change from the AOC to the Constitution because it granted more to the Federal Level does not mean it was granting total Supreme power in most instances. It was granting what was needed to enable the Country to operate, not to let Congress decided HOW it needed to operate in all aspects. To imply the larger power is to ignore the Convention and Ratification debates among the states.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
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by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 7:08 PM CST up reply actions  

That's a wish

more than a reality. You claim it is a free market document but it explicitly grants the power to regulate. How do you reconcile that?

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 5:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Trace the origin of the clause and the meaning of the word and how it was used in 1787 when drafted.

Regulate as seen today was NOT how it was understood then, not does the word Commerce (Commerce, Trade and Manufacturing were all seen as different things). Tracing that clause back to its motivations is actually quite interesting.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
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by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 5:26 PM CST up reply actions  

I'd also like to point to...

the Armed Forces are just one example of the free market not filling in that particular need.

by aeroplane on Jan 20, 2012 5:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Common Sense may be applied

Obviously it encompasses other functions as well.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 5:26 PM CST up reply actions  

it seems you’re more than happy to make exceptions when it’s “common sense”.

But hey, what tools could the government use to regulate the slave trade in our past? And what amendments were born to protect that inglorious economic activity?

by aeroplane on Jan 20, 2012 5:33 PM CST up reply actions  

To protect it none.

Common sense (if I have to explain it here) meanining, the Constitution obviously covers other things as well to market aspects. In regards to market aspects, if followed as was ratified to be understood, only a free market can exist, Congress was not granted the power by those who established it to control the market, only to make it regular.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 5:35 PM CST up reply actions  

meh

where to even begin? Why bother? True free market systems don’t exist and I’d go as far as to say the biggest threat to freer economic markets are businesses (I use this term to mean mob and cartel groups) themselves. Regulation is vital even if it causes it’s own set of problems.

by aeroplane on Jan 20, 2012 5:40 PM CST up reply actions  

(including mob and cartel groups)

by aeroplane on Jan 20, 2012 5:43 PM CST up reply actions  

You are right for here at least

We do not have a true free market, it is slanted a twisted in various ways to favor some groups and hinder others. Commerce between the states should be regular, a uniform set of rules that apply to all (we do not even have this). It should be regulated to the point (by states if intrastate, Congress if interstate) to provide an equal opportunity system to all. Equal to succeed and fail, and to ensure honesty in business practices (no deception, lying, stealing, etc…), but NOT to plan an economy or to favor one business or group over another or interfere with business practices.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 5:47 PM CST up reply actions  

would you say that one component of a “free markets” is the right of businesses to lobby governments to give it a leg up on the competition (in the form of subsidies or preferential treatment)? That’s one aspect of the “free market” we haven’t regulated whatsoever.

by aeroplane on Jan 20, 2012 5:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Is a free market principle

TBH, I never looked at it exactly like that, but in other ways I have. I see it first as a free speech, association and seeking redress issue, and is absolutely protected because it is (though I despise the practice itself). The bigger issue I see, is why they lobby exists? It is because Congress has taken the power to to have an impact in the market. Because of this they seek to gain the upperhand. It is the consequence not of a free market, but a controlled market IMO.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 6:01 PM CST up reply actions  

completely disagree with your assertion on the consequences.

What time does the game begin? and how the hell have we been able to talk about these issues as long as we have?

by aeroplane on Jan 20, 2012 6:02 PM CST up reply actions  

If Congress did not control the market

What would lobbyist lobby for, since the Congress could not help them or inhibit their competition.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 6:04 PM CST up reply actions  

No?

So no Government subsidies, regulations or targeted tax breaks exist, that help or hurt certain companies or products? That IS market control.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 6:11 PM CST up reply actions  

control...

or influence?

Then again, I think it’s paramount in understanding how the current economic policy we see in our government came to be. Who exactly are the people who represent us? It’s not not corporate or moneyed interests that control the economic policy dialogue.

I don’t believe it’s been government that has brought us to the current point of crisis, it’s the lack of governing that’s hurt us.

by aeroplane on Jan 20, 2012 6:25 PM CST up reply actions  

I say it is Government intervention

Govenrment should not be picking winner or losers or even influencing the outcome, NOR should they ever say too big to fail.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 6:31 PM CST up reply actions  

it's not government...

it’s the monied interests that do. Free markets at work.

by aeroplane on Jan 20, 2012 6:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Explain TARP?

How is that not picking who would not fail, while leaving other to fail at the same time?

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 6:39 PM CST up reply actions  

that’s a product of the free market, no? If your business had someone inside the Bush (and later the Obama) White House, you were in better position to survive, no? Businesses were just using their connections to survive.

And yes, I completely disagree with how entrenched certain interests are in our political system. But that’s not a problem with government as much as it’s a problem with how our government system lets monied interests create public and economic policy. But that’s not going to change, is it?

by aeroplane on Jan 20, 2012 7:07 PM CST up reply actions  

The only real aspect of the Slave trade that could be regulated was the importation (which was prohibited to be touched until 1808)

And the reason for that was because it dealt with foreign nations. Intrastate, Congress could not touch it, it did not have the power. If it did, the Constitution itself would never had been ratified.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 5:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Our constitution was meant to be a base, one that would change with the times. In that regard, it’s an amazing achievement that’s not rooted in dogma (even if there are those who are dogmatic about it).

Still, I think the slave trade is one point where free market and many of the other amendments are in direct opposition of one another.

by aeroplane on Jan 20, 2012 5:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Not only against each other

But against to first principle, “all men are created equal”. This is an ugly part of our history we should not avoid, but understand how much it influenced so much.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 5:57 PM CST up reply actions  

I disagree with the term "base"

It was meant to be the “bounds” or “limits” of government, it could operate up to them, not past them. If it was not working, that is why Article V was included and has been used now 27 times.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 6:02 PM CST up reply actions  

it is definitely a base

to think otherwise is a slight to the men who created our constitution, which was founded on some of the greatest thinking in our history (with a dash of regressive policy).

by aeroplane on Jan 20, 2012 6:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Then why did they specifically say "limits" in their arguments for it?

To say base by and of itself only is in conflict with what they advocated post convention in many many writings, notably Madison himself.

If you mean Base to build off of (through amendment) you would be correct. They also understood it was not going to be perfect, and provided a means to adjust it (Article V). But to what powers it did describe, they were a limit.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 6:10 PM CST up reply actions  

If it is not merely a base

why is there a 9th Amendment? [BTW – do you know that no Republican appointee to the Supreme Court has ever recognized that the 9th Amendment is relevant to any decision they have ever made?]

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 6:14 PM CST up reply actions  

Like I mentioned before

I am only starting to get into SCOTUS. As for the origin of the 9th Amendment, it was basically a catchall for all the other Natural Rights people posses. That even though they were not specifically protected like some, the natural rights of the people the “other rights”, to not use the lack of specific protection as an excuse for infringement. It was called out by all 6 states that countered their ratification with a “Bill of Rights” to “further limit” the federal government.

As for no Republican appointee defending the 9th. Thomas did by proxy in McDonald vs Chicago is his very well written (IMO) opinion mainly about the 14th amendment, but it also applies to the 9th. He was appointed by Bush Sr.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 6:19 PM CST up reply actions  

The Ninth Amendment

was created as a concession to those who were opposed to the BoR on the grounds that creating such a list would imply that it is a limit (also arguing that a list of rights was not needed because the fed government hadn’t been given the power to take them away to begin with). The purpose of the 9th Amendment was so nobody could ever argue the proper interpretation of the BoR was a strict, minimal interpretation of the rights explicitly granted.

Nowadays, that is exactly how the Republicans on the Court interpret the BoR – strict, minimalist, and no rights exist outside the explicit list. Yet, they claim they are the ones interpreting it in accordance with the wishes of the FF. Go figure.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 6:46 PM CST up reply actions  

In regards to the 9th,

I think we are both barking up the same tree, just little different descriptions or statements. I agree to the fears of the BOR (Madison argued against it with Jay and Hamilton in the Federalists).

As for “republican” on SCOTUS, I would have to disagree if we are talking Thomas, Scalia and Roberts, once again read Thomas (I believe Scalia also wrote an opinion or Roberts perhaps) in Mcd v CHI, Heller v DC, citizens United vs FEC. Their writings are in stark contrast to what you ascertain. Also throw in Helo vs New London (since I live right next to New London! lol)

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 6:56 PM CST up reply actions  

yep...

and the more I’ve learned about political and economic liberalism (or lack of it) in other countries/societies, the more I truly abhor how simplistic our nation’s public discourse is.

by aeroplane on Jan 20, 2012 4:59 PM CST up reply actions  

OT on the OT

It is nice to have this peaceful discussion for the most part. Though obviously I am outnumbered and viewed as a fool, I would actually love to be able to actually sit down and discuss this in person with Aero and SR. I think we could all learn allot from each other, and open our eyes up to other things.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 6:13 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't view you as a fool at all.

I very you as someone who is bright but whose view is limited because, while you think you have a broad knowledge, I can see the holes.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 6:15 PM CST up reply actions  

I can't cover everything, I have a job! lol

The holes as you see them may be things I have not figured out good ways to express my POV, or still need to learn more about to properly defend, or I can be AFU.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 6:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Holes are not to be ashamed of.

I was fortunate to have been raised a Democrat but “educated” by Republicans. Seeing both sides is a blessing . . and a curse.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 6:48 PM CST up reply actions  

I second...

stanfordron. Don’t view you as a fool at all.

by aeroplane on Jan 20, 2012 6:20 PM CST up reply actions  

"The internet is a series of tubes" - a Senator

These are the people who are making these decisions.

I do stuff for CheerTheAnthem

by HjammerTime on Jan 19, 2012 3:07 PM CST reply actions  

I forget his name

But that guy who was (I think) the head of the subcommittee was just the worst thing ever. Also, all the calls for “bring in the nerds” really riles me up. For literally any other subject, it would be “expert” but because it’s to do with that big box with a keyboard attached, it must be nerd-related, right?

Because a blog of alcoholics just isn't complete without a Scot.
"The dubstep guy" - DesertHawk

by Germware on Jan 19, 2012 3:13 PM CST up reply actions  

I love being dismissed that way.

Makes ya feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Furious George! What happened to your beautiful face?!?

by AirTrafficAJ on Jan 20, 2012 11:35 AM CST up reply actions  

Nope missed it.

Germware – it was Senator Stevens. He died in a plane crash a year or so ago.

I do stuff for CheerTheAnthem

by HjammerTime on Jan 19, 2012 3:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Nah, I was talking about the guy in the clip on the Daily Show

who was different from the “series of tubes” guy. Looked kind of like a mix between Michael Steele and Norman Wilson from The Wire (probably the best TV show ever, btw).

Because a blog of alcoholics just isn't complete without a Scot.
"The dubstep guy" - DesertHawk

by Germware on Jan 19, 2012 3:55 PM CST up reply actions  

Ah, I misunderstood. My bad.

I literally just started watching The Wire. About 4 episodes in.

I do stuff for CheerTheAnthem

by HjammerTime on Jan 19, 2012 3:59 PM CST up reply actions  

addiction kicks in pretty soon..

be warned!

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 4:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, just about when Omar turns up

Because a blog of alcoholics just isn't complete without a Scot.
"The dubstep guy" - DesertHawk

by Germware on Jan 19, 2012 4:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Omar!

He comin yo!

I’ve only seen about eight episodes, but I love it.

by mad-hatter on Jan 19, 2012 4:08 PM CST up reply actions  

The start of the second season is kind of alienating

because, without giving too much away, it moves on to other aspects of the drug trade and the switch is pretty sudden. It’s still good, but it’s not what I expected, so it took longer to get into than the first season. Stick with it, though.

Because a blog of alcoholics just isn't complete without a Scot.
"The dubstep guy" - DesertHawk

by Germware on Jan 19, 2012 4:13 PM CST up reply actions  

Might be a while before I'm able to watch it

But I’ll definitely keep this in mind, thanks.

by mad-hatter on Jan 19, 2012 4:14 PM CST up reply actions  

I really liked the second season..

because, yes, it changes pace.. but is still great..

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 4:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Oh, yeah

But it’s like hearing your favourite band go in a different direction; takes some getting used to.

Because a blog of alcoholics just isn't complete without a Scot.
"The dubstep guy" - DesertHawk

by Germware on Jan 19, 2012 4:21 PM CST up reply actions  

ha!

I remember that… and it’s like when the “Violence in Computer Games” debate periodically starts up.. these incredibly old guys talking about “Pac-Mans Shooting Them Up with Doom Super Mario Theft Auto”

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 3:10 PM CST up reply actions  

For the rest of you -

Stewart had clips of several Congresspeople starting their discourse by stating they were not expert on the internet. However, they were the committee responsible for regulating it.

by stanfordron on Jan 19, 2012 3:13 PM CST up reply actions  

/facepalm

this is why government should not be in charge of things it doesn’t understand. they idea is to use the flamethrower so they don’t miss anything.

Turco was good, but Crawford has a force field...

by Coz_Bulls_Fan on Jan 20, 2012 10:11 AM CST up reply actions  

Or what about the one who

was worried about Guam tipping over when the marines pulled out of japan…. oh fun times.

Curator of Dark Side of the Five Hole
I like our guys, especially these guys.
Unapologetic apologist for hockey South of the Mason/Dixon

by DesertHawk on Jan 19, 2012 3:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Fixed...

“it’s Ok, TJ.. you’re Mommy’s Brave Little Soldier.. don’t worry, Mommy will kiss the Owwwie away”

No Shagga, No Dagga

by Saskjet on Jan 19, 2012 3:31 PM CST up reply actions  

fixed

" "

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 5:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Um,

That’s not a still being frozen?

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 5:46 PM CST up reply actions  

nope, that's his thumb being frozen,,

admit it TMFF, YOU took his Lunch Money and then pantsed him before Gym.. amirite?

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 5:48 PM CST up reply actions  

I invoke my 5th Amendment protection against self incrimination

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 5:50 PM CST up reply actions  

yeah, yeah.. we know what you're like...

TMFF

do I have your permission to make his comment?

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 5:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Is that The Fonz?

I keep hearing about him on these series of tubes that connect my magic box to the “interdnotz”

Furious George! What happened to your beautiful face?!?

by AirTrafficAJ on Jan 20, 2012 11:37 AM CST up reply actions  

Hilarious!

Almost too good to be true

by aeroplane on Jan 19, 2012 3:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Digging the plug, thus far

Intro reminded me of Immortal and then the guitar riff after that sounded very similar to Agalloch. Good drum work!

by BodomSlayer on Jan 19, 2012 3:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Thanks

Both of which, are influences for sure.

by Samuroth on Jan 19, 2012 3:30 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I'm gonna have to start following you guys

I’ve been looking for a good new local band. You guys ever play any shows out in the burbs? I know Ye Old Town Inn does a lot of metal shows.

by BodomSlayer on Jan 19, 2012 3:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Congratulations on the exposure

but I suspect your attitude would change once you actually got a recording deal and were trying to sell product. Right now, you’re giving your work away because you have too (no offense, truly), in the same way that new restaurants stand on the corner giving away samples of their ware, etc. And it’s your choice to charge or not charge for your work. But once you’ve become well known, and in greater demand, I imagine you’ll actually want to make some money off of your work, and would then be a bit peeved to know somebody was distributing it without you getting your cut.

An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. (Jef Mallett)

by 334Rules on Jan 19, 2012 3:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah

I understand that aspect. But I’ve never looked at music as my means of income…I know some people do use it in that regard. But I’m in school for Architecture…that will be my “job” music is more of my passion and way of expressing my emotions. So I guess I just have a different perspective on it then others may have in the same postion.

by Samuroth on Jan 19, 2012 3:42 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

my POV on this..

yes, it’s cool for bands at the “lower” levels to do this.. getting that exposure is good, but, as you say, you’re going to be an architect.. one of the most damaging things I’ve seen in music in recent years was Radiohead doing that “pay what you want” thing for In Rainbows.. yeah, it’s fine for millionaires like Radiohead to “Give Away” a record.. but that’s further devaluing the Album.. and that’s not good..

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 3:48 PM CST up reply actions  

If you were in music

For the money I this k you’d pick any genre other than black metal to achieve that. Most metal musicians work regular jobs. As I recall fenriz is a postman.

by BodomSlayer on Jan 19, 2012 3:50 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Yeah

I was just going to say, Radiohead has a much more marketable type of music then the music I play so I could see how detrimental to the entire industry that would be. And for the record Fenriz rules and is one of my heros haha.

by Samuroth on Jan 19, 2012 3:52 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Most metal guys are great

I’ve had the chance to talk to nocturnal culto and rob darken and both guys are very humble about their music and very nice. Even in regards to product, a lot of major acts are lashing out against labels.

Radio Head, Trent Reznor. Alter Bridge, one of my favorite non metal bands, wrote and recorded their last album with their own funds just to avoid label input. Even the artists realize labels and their legislation are bad news.

by BodomSlayer on Jan 19, 2012 3:57 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

I'll agree with that!

Metal fans are an interesting bunch.. made it through the ’80’s with no radio or MTV play (they were busy fellating Van Halen, Poison and Winger.. and when Kurt Cobain&co came along and destroyed Hair Metal at a single blow, who were the only bands left standing? Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer, Anthrax… ie the guys who toured the shit out of it, lived in vans, played every little dive going with a box of records under their arm… now THAT’S building a fanbase!

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 4:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Most artists, whether recording are not, get most of their money through concerts and tours

Than through endorsements and other miscellaneous contributions. As for CD sales, I’ve heard they only make some pocket change for each record sold (especially considering some artists will sell an entire album for less than five dollars via Amazon or iTunes). I feel that the same kind of idea can be applied to the movie industry as well, in that most revenue comes from tickets sold in the theater, and then only a handful coming from later purchases such as DVDs.

by mad-hatter on Jan 19, 2012 4:12 PM CST up reply actions  

not true..

about the tours or merchandise.. I outline why above..

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 4:17 PM CST up reply actions  

If some artists can sell concert tickets for about 150 a pop

Yes the money is distributed to a wide range of other parties, such as venue owners, promoters, technical crews, and other so-called behind-the-scenes personnel, but they’ll deposit more into their account by selling out a 20,000 arena than selling 20,000 albums or singles.

by mad-hatter on Jan 19, 2012 4:23 PM CST up reply actions  

yes, that's true

but how many can do that? my original point was only those at the very top or very bottom make money from touring.. for the vast majority it’s a loss that comes out of your advance..

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 4:25 PM CST up reply actions  

I'd rather support a band

by buying a ticket to their show and buying merch (and possibly their album, even if I’ve already pirated it) there than buying their CD or downloading their tracks from iTunes/whatever download service.

There are some who call me........Tim?

Tremendously tremendous! Beautius J. Beautius!

Fuck Radim Vrbata.

by allyouyounghockeyplayersoutthere on Jan 19, 2012 4:28 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Agreed.

I only download from time to time these days. Its either because the album will not be released state side, or is a month after its global release. Or, to see if the album is worh buying (I.e. Metallica, Opeth, and In Flames) of which I only bought the last Metallica album since it was actually good.

by BodomSlayer on Jan 19, 2012 4:49 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Or, to see if the album is worth buying

I do this all the time. Er. I did when I had the monies.
I often check music sites/blogs and download anything they’ve got/recommend that’s in my ballpark. It may be only one or two songs for a band but it still is more than I would be able to hear if these bills were to be passed.

There are some who call me........Tim?

Tremendously tremendous! Beautius J. Beautius!

Fuck Radim Vrbata.

by allyouyounghockeyplayersoutthere on Jan 19, 2012 4:54 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

The thirty second previews on itunes

Are never enough. I plugged my own blog earlier and said one thing labels could do is allow users to download x amount of tracks of a new album to listen to for like a week, and then they expire, to see if you like the album.

by BodomSlayer on Jan 19, 2012 5:00 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

I agree.

Even one or two songs to download (with or without an expiration date) would do a great service to bands.

There are some who call me........Tim?

Tremendously tremendous! Beautius J. Beautius!

Fuck Radim Vrbata.

by allyouyounghockeyplayersoutthere on Jan 19, 2012 5:09 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't understand how it's either very top or bottom

It seems to me that those at the top make money off both concerts and music sales, and than as you go down the ladder everything gets smaller. Ticket prices go for only about $30 to $60, which though significantly smaller, these musicians aren’t producing as large a production, but they’re also selling less singles. And when you reach the very bottom, artists are simply throwing their music on the internet so that they can start a following, and play at local venues and festivals, probably not for much, but certainly more than what they’d earn through CD sales.

by mad-hatter on Jan 19, 2012 4:35 PM CST up reply actions  

And when you reach the very bottom, artists are simply throwing their music on the internet so that they can start a following, and play at local venues and festivals, probably not for much, but certainly more than what they’d earn through CD sales.

We played a show on Saturday and got paid $10. Total. And we handed out our CD for free.

There are some who call me........Tim?

Tremendously tremendous! Beautius J. Beautius!

Fuck Radim Vrbata.

by allyouyounghockeyplayersoutthere on Jan 19, 2012 4:39 PM CST up reply actions  

I need to wait till im home to listen

My mobile browser will not play anything off that site.

by BodomSlayer on Jan 19, 2012 4:45 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Hey, whenever you can!

I appreciate it!
And I hope you like it.
Andand if you do, please download it!

It!

There are some who call me........Tim?

Tremendously tremendous! Beautius J. Beautius!

Fuck Radim Vrbata.

by allyouyounghockeyplayersoutthere on Jan 19, 2012 4:50 PM CST up reply actions  

What would you describe the sound to be similar too?

I’m antsy and impatient. As much as I love my metal I’ve recently gotten into some odd music lol.

by BodomSlayer on Jan 19, 2012 4:54 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Erm..I dunno, really.

I had some kid come up to me after a show and said we sounded like “Circa Survive…but better” but I don’t listen to a whole lot of them so I couldn’t say if that was true.
I can hear some Sparta or more recent Brand New stuff influence in there, though. I think it’s fairly unique without sounding unfamiliar.

Also, my favorite out of the four (to play and listen to) would probably be the third song, Camel. I play lead so it’s a lot of fun on the guitar lol.

There are some who call me........Tim?

Tremendously tremendous! Beautius J. Beautius!

Fuck Radim Vrbata.

by allyouyounghockeyplayersoutthere on Jan 19, 2012 5:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Also

If anyone gives a listen to it could give me their thoughts to how to describe it, that would be great. Because I’m never sure what to tell people when they ask what we sound like.

There are some who call me........Tim?

Tremendously tremendous! Beautius J. Beautius!

Fuck Radim Vrbata.

by allyouyounghockeyplayersoutthere on Jan 19, 2012 5:13 PM CST up reply actions  

I listened to all the songs

Very good, I like it. Overall I would say it reminds me of a heavier Dashboard Confessional.

by BodomSlayer on Jan 19, 2012 7:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Hah

Now that you say that, I can kinda hear it. Mostly similarities in their voices.

Thanks for listening!

There are some who call me........Tim?

Tremendously tremendous! Beautius J. Beautius!

Fuck Radim Vrbata.

by allyouyounghockeyplayersoutthere on Jan 20, 2012 12:42 AM CST up reply actions  

No problem, I really liked it

As much metal as I listen to I will say I’ve recently gotten hooked on Dashboard.

by BodomSlayer on Jan 20, 2012 1:18 AM CST up reply actions  

Oh gosh. My high school music. Not all of it though.

"I remember trying to open presents before Daniel because we always got the same presents. I wanted to have the surprise."
— Henrik Sedin

tweet tweet

by eightyseven on Jan 25, 2012 2:45 AM CST up reply actions  

mainly it's because

of the stranglehold that Ticketmaster has/promoters wanting a cut.. those at the bottom can make money because they’re likely dealing with non-professionals (music co-ops, student unions etc) and as long as they keep their costs down (sleeping in the van, skipping the odd meal) they can turn a profit. The ones at the very top can do it through a)extraordinary ticket price b) huge record company support (that the company is happy to write off) and c) eventual “Live Album/DVD” sales.. for the rest it’s “Record company subsidises your tourbus, rider and accomodation.. but it comes off your Advance”

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 4:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Okay, now I understand

I still don’t believe that CD sales would have that much of an impact to balance out performance costs, but no one’s offered to show me their revenue books (how rude of them).

by mad-hatter on Jan 19, 2012 4:50 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not sure if you're interested but I suggest

reading the book “Ticket Masters: The Rise Of The Concert Industry And How The Public Got Scalped” (Review Here) I just finished it a couple of weeks ago. It covers your points and a whole lot more like pre-sales, service fees, corporate sponsorships and how ticket brokers like StubHub get their tickets. It’s pretty disgusting how much money is made at the expense of the concert goer.

Maybe, just once, someone will call me 'Sir' without adding, 'You're making a scene."

by cdz3210 on Jan 19, 2012 5:20 PM CST up reply actions  

very interested! thanks!

and I have heard of that book, just haven’t read it.. will do, though.. and yeah.. it’s the punters/bands that get fucked in this deal!

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 5:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Well,

if you sell 10 million widgets at a $.25/widget margin, you’ve pocketed a pretty penny.

An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. (Jef Mallett)

by 334Rules on Jan 19, 2012 4:18 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm in the same boat.

If this bill passes, it will make it so much harder for us in unsigned bands to disseminate our music. People wouldn’t be able to post the songs on facebook or twitter be like “HEY, LISTEN TO THIS!” because then it would just shut the damn site down.

This is the problem when people who don’t know how to use the internet try to govern the internet. There is simply too much grey area on the web to contain.

There are some who call me........Tim?

Tremendously tremendous! Beautius J. Beautius!

Fuck Radim Vrbata.

by allyouyounghockeyplayersoutthere on Jan 19, 2012 3:58 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

yeah

those are the same fears I’m worrying about.

by Samuroth on Jan 19, 2012 4:00 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Doesn't help

that even if you are signed, it doesn’t really mean as much as it used to. Radio and MTV don’t have the power they once had to make/break a band. I wouldn’t listen to 98% of the bands I listen to if it wasn’t for the internet.

There are some who call me........Tim?

Tremendously tremendous! Beautius J. Beautius!

Fuck Radim Vrbata.

by allyouyounghockeyplayersoutthere on Jan 19, 2012 4:02 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

you should plug

Your band with a link ;)

by BodomSlayer on Jan 19, 2012 4:04 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

I'm going to be a blatant rec whore here

but can Samuroth and I get some greenage on our posts? The more people who notice/like us, the more we like you!

There are some who call me........Tim?

Tremendously tremendous! Beautius J. Beautius!

Fuck Radim Vrbata.

by allyouyounghockeyplayersoutthere on Jan 19, 2012 4:48 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

done

that’s a lot of posts, though

(thorough Badgerdano)

/drops tactical nuke on saskjet/

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 4:59 PM CST up reply actions  

aahahahaha bagerdano'd!

and thank you!

There are some who call me........Tim?

Tremendously tremendous! Beautius J. Beautius!

Fuck Radim Vrbata.

by allyouyounghockeyplayersoutthere on Jan 19, 2012 5:10 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

like the record!

you must have gone down a storm with the “Shouty Leg Tattoo” crowd… and as for sound-a-likes.. I can understand the Sparta/At The Drive In comments.. also catching a wee bit of Helmet, Tool and Deftones.. these are all good things!

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 7:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Thanks!

We actually got a pretty good response from the kids+other bands. It was very surprising.

There are some who call me........Tim?

Tremendously tremendous! Beautius J. Beautius!

Fuck Radim Vrbata.

by allyouyounghockeyplayersoutthere on Jan 20, 2012 12:41 AM CST up reply actions  

Does MTV even play music anymore?

Not a snarky rhetorical Q, I genuinely don’t know if they set aside an hour for it per day or something.

Because a blog of alcoholics just isn't complete without a Scot.
"The dubstep guy" - DesertHawk

by Germware on Jan 19, 2012 4:07 PM CST up reply actions  

how could they find time

Between all those episodes of teen mom.

by BodomSlayer on Jan 19, 2012 4:08 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

I think every once in a while

MTV2 plays videos…like whenever they decide to air the revived Headbangers Ball or 120 Minutes. But that’s very sparingly. Headbangers Ball is “erratically” aired (according to wikipedia) and I just checked about 120 Minutes..when they brought it back, it was once a month at like 1AM…..now it’s every Friday from 6-8AM :| :| :|

There are some who call me........Tim?

Tremendously tremendous! Beautius J. Beautius!

Fuck Radim Vrbata.

by allyouyounghockeyplayersoutthere on Jan 19, 2012 4:11 PM CST up reply actions  

MTV

shows like 30 seconds of videos during the credits of shows but thats really about it

Im too lazy to make a signature

by BigHoss on Jan 19, 2012 5:13 PM CST up reply actions  

I've been watching Palladia Channel.

Pretty much non-stop concerts, vids and music docs/films.

An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. (Jef Mallett)

by 334Rules on Jan 19, 2012 4:19 PM CST up reply actions  

I can get behind this..

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 4:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Ditto

Because a blog of alcoholics just isn't complete without a Scot.
"The dubstep guy" - DesertHawk

by Germware on Jan 19, 2012 4:22 PM CST up reply actions  

as Jello Biafra said..

MTV Get Off The Air

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 4:24 PM CST up reply actions  

If I remember correctly

they show it at stupid early in the morning but this was a couple years ago, so even that might be gone by now.

Curator of Dark Side of the Five Hole
I like our guys, especially these guys.
Unapologetic apologist for hockey South of the Mason/Dixon

by DesertHawk on Jan 19, 2012 5:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Here's a good link

that explains what SOPA/PIPA could mean for Canadians indirectly, and it also discusses a similar bill (C-11) that is being rammed our way. It’s worth speaking out against if you’re so inclined and for anyone thinking this is a US problem – it paints a good picture of foreign policy and effect.

SOPA/PIPA in Canada?

You are next.

by M7 on Jan 19, 2012 4:44 PM CST reply actions  

hell, the UK government is s desperate to ape the US..

I’m sure there’ll be a version of this there soon.. and then Ireland will folow suit..

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 4:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Time to make helmets in warmups mandatory?

I have a feeling it won’t happen because the NHLPA will not approve it and the NHL will not waste one of their bargaining chips on it but I think it would be good if they could find a way to get it done.

by lobster on Jan 19, 2012 5:24 PM CST reply actions  

to be honest

I’m surprised they weren’t.. guys out on the ice, sticks, skates, pucks.. and bare heads? WTF? is this the early ’80s again?

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 5:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah

i think so so nothing like this happens again even though it was a freak accident i think helmets should be mandatory so that way this doesnt happen again

Im too lazy to make a signature

by BigHoss on Jan 19, 2012 5:39 PM CST up reply actions  

As an alternative to SOPA & PIPA

The OPEN Act has been introduced. From what I see is that it takes the power away from the US Government and gives it to the International Trade Commission.

Maybe, just once, someone will call me 'Sir' without adding, 'You're making a scene."

by cdz3210 on Jan 19, 2012 5:37 PM CST reply actions  

oh great

now we’ll get another thread that gets us to the itty-bitty right margin, this one about the UN-Jewish-Masonic-Hague-Sedin-International Conspiracy to Emasculate, Enervate and Emigrate American Hegemony Autonomy and Superiority of Bodily Fluids

/s, more often than not

by flyersfaninchicago on Jan 19, 2012 6:00 PM CST up reply actions  

The abberviation for that’s gonna suck.

"I remember trying to open presents before Daniel because we always got the same presents. I wanted to have the surprise."
— Henrik Sedin

tweet tweet

by eightyseven on Jan 19, 2012 6:01 PM CST up reply actions  

hah!

exactly!

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 6:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Are YOU for the UNJMHSICEEEAHASBF?

"I remember trying to open presents before Daniel because we always got the same presents. I wanted to have the surprise."
— Henrik Sedin

tweet tweet

by eightyseven on Jan 19, 2012 6:47 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm really glad

you went to that effort so I didn’t have to!

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 7:06 PM CST up reply actions  

It took me much longer than it should have. Sad.

"I remember trying to open presents before Daniel because we always got the same presents. I wanted to have the surprise."
— Henrik Sedin

tweet tweet

by eightyseven on Jan 20, 2012 12:20 AM CST up reply actions  

i actually think OPEN is interesting

i’m just a sarcasm whore

/s, more often than not

by flyersfaninchicago on Jan 19, 2012 6:02 PM CST up reply actions  

From Bad to worse IMO

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 6:05 PM CST up reply actions  

I have a crazy idea,

How about we ENFORCE the laws already on the books that make pirating (supply or consumption) illegal? Making it more illegal does not solve the problem, it only hurts those who have no part in it, but may be in proxy to some who do. You do not punish the innocent for the crimes of someone else.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 6:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Hey

What do you know, an example of just that

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 6:09 PM CST up reply actions  

I laughed

when I found out SWIZZ BEATZ was Megavideo’s CEO.

"I remember trying to open presents before Daniel because we always got the same presents. I wanted to have the surprise."
— Henrik Sedin

tweet tweet

by eightyseven on Jan 19, 2012 6:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Or Megaupload’s.

Megawhatever.

"I remember trying to open presents before Daniel because we always got the same presents. I wanted to have the surprise."
— Henrik Sedin

tweet tweet

by eightyseven on Jan 19, 2012 6:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Me, too.

That’s so ridiculously random.

There are some who call me........Tim?

Tremendously tremendous! Beautius J. Beautius!

Fuck Radim Vrbata.

by allyouyounghockeyplayersoutthere on Jan 19, 2012 6:24 PM CST up reply actions  

And Anonymous took offense.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/01/19/technology/megaupload_shutdown/

There are some who call me........Tim?

Tremendously tremendous! Beautius J. Beautius!

Fuck Radim Vrbata.

by allyouyounghockeyplayersoutthere on Jan 19, 2012 6:25 PM CST up reply actions  

We are not worthy.

"I remember trying to open presents before Daniel because we always got the same presents. I wanted to have the surprise."
— Henrik Sedin

tweet tweet

by eightyseven on Jan 19, 2012 6:26 PM CST up reply actions  

They just took down Warner Music Group's page within the past few minutes.

There are some who call me........Tim?

Tremendously tremendous! Beautius J. Beautius!

Fuck Radim Vrbata.

by allyouyounghockeyplayersoutthere on Jan 19, 2012 6:37 PM CST up reply actions  

assholes like Anonymous

are not helping…

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 6:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Not at all,

They might rally some, but on the whole draw far more against their cause then help it in the end.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 6:42 PM CST up reply actions  

They posted links to download

every single Sony artists’ discographies.

Links/torrents to Sony films too. It’s huge!

"I remember trying to open presents before Daniel because we always got the same presents. I wanted to have the surprise."
— Henrik Sedin

tweet tweet

by eightyseven on Jan 25, 2012 1:58 AM CST up reply actions  

This mirrors our government

Party “A” comes up with a bad idea, Party “B” comes back with a worse idea.
Result= everyone gets fucked over.

Maybe, just once, someone will call me 'Sir' without adding, 'You're making a scene."

by cdz3210 on Jan 19, 2012 6:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Then they compromise on a worser idea

And tell everybody look how delicious this Shit Sandwich looks, YOU ARE GOING TO LOVE IT!! With smiles on their faces (because the exempted themselves from having to eat it too)

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 6:44 PM CST up reply actions  

I just read a book

about the 1927 Mississippi River floods. They were created by this exact situation over a period of about 60 years. You would like it but I can’t think of the name.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 11:37 AM CST up reply actions  

hey, Killion..

about that whole “SCH doesn’t do politics” thing…:p

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 6:46 PM CST reply actions  

We don't get to air it out much,

If this one post does it for the rest of the season, so everybody knows where everybody stands (again) by all means use and abuse it to keep it out of the GDT!

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 6:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Fuck the Whigs!

/s, more often than not

by flyersfaninchicago on Jan 19, 2012 6:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Hey!!!

I like Whigs, Franklin, Madison, Jefferson, Adams, Pinckney where Whigs!

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 6:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, Whigs were cool. Anti-tyranny, open source software, etc.

/s, more often than not

by flyersfaninchicago on Jan 19, 2012 6:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Open Source Software being

Cheap Lambskin from any farmer I take it, right?

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 6:54 PM CST up reply actions  

Is it real or is it Dolly?

(just trying to stay with the pirate content theme. and working through the barnyard)

/s, more often than not

by flyersfaninchicago on Jan 19, 2012 7:01 PM CST up reply actions  

plz to be leaving

your nasty personal habits at the door… kthx!

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 7:03 PM CST up reply actions  

WHO TOLD YOU THAT?

Not only is that not true, to claim Adams was on the same side as Franklin and Madison is outrageous. When Adams was president, he used the ANTI-Sedition Acts to jail Franklin and Madison’s supporters.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 11:39 AM CST up reply actions  

Samuel Adams

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 1:27 PM CST up reply actions  

That's better,

but Sam was a major Trinitarian Christian Fundamentalist. The other’s were Unitarian Christians. Their political perspectives were very different. Plus, the Whigs did not really come together until the election of 1832. Jefferson was already dead by then. Without looking it up, I’d imagine the same is true for Sam and Ben. Who told you they were Whigs? They were actually the people who formed the Democratic-Republican Party. The Whigs came together in opposition to the DRs.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 2:00 PM CST up reply actions  

I am really referring to the Revolutionary Whigs

Not the Whig party. I always meant Sam Adams BTW, and during the Revolution and leading up to it, I would consider John at least a Whig sympathizer and supporter.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 3:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Okay -

but that is a pretty broad definition of the word “Whig” – just its original meaning of being against the King of England. In that sense, the vast majority of Americans were “Whigs.” You really haven’t defined anything special when you use it that way.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 3:31 PM CST up reply actions  

It was only a comment in response to a out of the blue statement above.

I like the Revolutionary Whigs, and gave some names of those who where. Nothing more.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 3:34 PM CST up reply actions  

’And the floor recognizes the member of the Tourettes Party"

/s, more often than not

by flyersfaninchicago on Jan 19, 2012 6:51 PM CST up reply actions  

(wins overwhelming majority)

/votes to send saskjet to the Moon/

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 7:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Reasons why I hate politics

but fuck SOPA PIPA, and the assholes who are trying to make sure this passes

Why Q, why?!
"Watching a shootout is like admitting you watch Survivor or search the internet for porn."

by Jrs23 on Jan 20, 2012 8:26 AM CST up reply actions  

Yip Yip, Hurray (maybe not???)

Preds claim Yip off waiver from COL

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 7:56 PM CST reply actions  

He never should have switched to jersey #18. It’s cursed.

Just a Colorado girl in Montana who ♥s the Avs and writes for Mile High Hockey.

by andidee15 on Jan 20, 2012 12:25 AM CST up reply actions  

SOPA is just the result of an industry fighting against change

Free downloads are the future and the entertainment industry is just prolonging it’s inevitable coming. Downloading information from the internet is not theft, and the industry is going to have to find a way to utilize information sharing instead of fighting it.

by robondacob on Jan 19, 2012 7:56 PM CST reply actions  

Downloading copyrighted or trademarked material IS theft

And if downloads all become free, no new material will be made. Why do a service or job if it does not pay? If no money can be made, no product will be made, unless you propose “forcing” people to work for free against their will?

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 7:59 PM CST up reply actions  

Advertising, live performance, enhanced experience through other venues, etc

Take music for example. If Columbia Records had a site that offered free downloads of any song I wanted, why would I need p2p transfers? That site will see a shit ton of traffic, offering huge opportunities for advertising. That site could also only provide free versions at 128k/s, while offering upgraded versions at 320k/s or higher.

Just look at online streaming of hockey games. The NHL wants me to play $20 a month for what I understand is a great service. But I don’t really care about HD quality streams, and the like. All over the net, these small pirate sites probably make a small fortune of shitty little banner ads, while showing terrible quality streams. If the NHL can control the rights to broadcasts enough to have Center Ice and Gamecenter, why not create a site that offeres free, low quality broadcasts of out of market games, complete with national advertising and commercials to create the revenue? (Note: I’m sure it’s more complex on their end, but still)

The point is piracy is going to find new work arounds to any legislation that’s passed. The internet has created ways to share information so easily, yet the entertainment industry continues to refuse to embrace that technology and wants to see potential consumers at criminals.

Even if SOPA passes, do you really think it’s going to stop me from having the next Batman movie before it hits theatres?

Chicagoan in the Lou.

by Mike Martin on Jan 19, 2012 10:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Remember the line from The Grifters?

“They’re either stealing a little or stealing a lot”.

Your solution is actually the direction that the industry needs to go — making new customers from people like you who don’t care enough or have enough $$ to go for the big ticket, but who consume the lower quality product because they can. You really don’t care that it’s JustinTV or whatever — you care that it’s hockey that you want to see. If Comcast/NBC and the NHL offered a lower quality product for free (without the glitches that the pirate sites have), collecting advertising dollars and showing a clear path to upgrade, they’d take the wind out of the sails of the pirates by simply offering a better product. Innovation is always the way, and potentially add more new customers to the higher end products with the upgrades. It’s a big, fat duh IMHO.

It's on, bitches.
Tweeping as @ehirtens

by hawkeytalk on Jan 19, 2012 10:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Please see WAY above

I addressed the aspect of the industries pricing themselves out, creating such a heavy demand. Your concept is fine, but ALL free can’t work, it removes incentive from the makers of the product.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 10:27 PM CST up reply actions  

sharing =/= theft

when I download torrents, i am downloading copied files that someone else owns and willingly shares. I am not taking anything from the original creators or even the distributors.

Also, downloads are already free and i don’t see the end of all new material as we know it. money can still be made, the industry is just too lazy to get with the times (though Netflix is an example of a step in the right direction).

by robondacob on Jan 19, 2012 10:44 PM CST up reply actions  

If the liscence does not permit it

it IS stealing. All you are doing is trying to justify to yourself committing an illegal act.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 10:51 PM CST up reply actions  

But if it's liscensed shouldn't we as consumers have some

sort of guaranteed right of back up, especially on something that’s a digital product? For instances I’ve already burned through one of my 3 allotted downloads of all of my purchased PS3 content because I had one shit the bed on me. Legally if that happens two more times I’m required to repurchase everything. That’s kind of bull-shit. I tunes does the same thing, or at least they did (haven’t used them in ages) Now if it’s just a product I’ve purchased why can’t I give it to a friend? If I have a toaster, I can give it to you, no big deal… If i somehow reproduced my toaster in my garage and gave you the recreation free of charge how is that illegal?

Curator of Dark Side of the Five Hole
I like our guys, especially these guys.
Unapologetic apologist for hockey South of the Mason/Dixon

by DesertHawk on Jan 19, 2012 11:14 PM CST up reply actions  

You can make backups
sort of guaranteed right of back up, especially on something that’s a digital product

This is reaffirmed by the courts.

But when you buy some things, like music and movies, you are buying a licence to view it, not the movie. Reselling CD, DVD’s is legal, since you are transferring that licence. Making a copy, then giving another copy is now sharing or giving out another licence, this is not the same.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 5:47 AM CST up reply actions  

I've yet to figure out how to backup anything on my playstation...

Curator of Dark Side of the Five Hole
I like our guys, especially these guys.
Unapologetic apologist for hockey South of the Mason/Dixon

by DesertHawk on Jan 20, 2012 12:13 PM CST up reply actions  

I have! lol (Xbox that is)

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 1:18 PM CST up reply actions  

if i buy a cd and choose to share it online that is not theft

i am just using it in a way the original maker doesn’t like. I have ownership of the music i should choose what i do with it. and thanks for attacking me personally by suggesting i have ulterior motives

by robondacob on Jan 19, 2012 11:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes

And my point is that the licensed product agreement is bullshit. Why should the company retain control over the music after I buy it?

They do the same crap with gaming devices and it’s bs

by robondacob on Jan 20, 2012 10:44 AM CST via mobile up reply actions  

They retain the rights to distribute it. That's why they are in business.

Rights that are not passed along to the single purchaser.

See if you can guess what I am now.

by IndianHeadCrest on Jan 20, 2012 11:44 AM CST up reply actions  

you own a CD

you don’t own the music. that’s the difference.

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 20, 2012 4:59 AM CST up reply actions  

You own a licence to THAT ONE COPY

Not to the music itself, the music is OWNED by somebody else.

You know that “I agree” to shit, you never read? It says just this, so do CD inserts and such. When you purchase it or activate the product you agree to these terms “by clicking the button” or by the terms of sale of the CD (read the Jewel case or box). By ignoring the terms you are agreeing to you are committing theft and violating their property.

You cannot justify around it, no matter how hard you try.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 5:50 AM CST up reply actions  

he's alive!! :D

SCH Narc - check yo'self before you wreck yo'self.

by ahnfire on Jan 20, 2012 12:04 AM CST up reply actions  

Green'd.

There are some who call me........Tim?

Tremendously tremendous! Beautius J. Beautius!

Fuck Radim Vrbata.

by allyouyounghockeyplayersoutthere on Jan 20, 2012 12:46 AM CST up reply actions  

They can do this, but do not have to
So if artists make their money mostly through tours, why shouldn’t they drop record companies, release their music for free

If they chose not to do this, they do not have to. IF they also want to make money on the sale of the music, it is their right, it is also their property, it is NOT ours to say FUCK IT with. IT is the person, companies or labels choice to do this, not ours to steal it from them.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 5:53 AM CST up reply actions  

You do know

the Libertarians are anti-intellectual property rights, right?

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 11:49 AM CST up reply actions  

I'm trying to ignore the "somebody is wrong on the Internet" stuff but...

Libertarians are NOT a subgroup of the Republican party and NO, Libertarians are NOT all Anti-intellectual property rights. You’ll find Libertarians on both sides of IPR. Where most Libertarians agree is that IPR should be limited some way by time.

by DaleHalas on Jan 20, 2012 12:36 PM CST up reply actions  

You're halfway right.

I should have written libertarians with a lower case “l”. Big “L” Libertarians are just crazy, inconsistent people who have been duped into thinking they are Republicans. Yes, they claim they are not but they have never endorsed nor worked to elect anybody who does not have an “R” after his/her name on a ballot. In fact, they refuse to vote for third party candidates of their own persuasion because they think it would lead to Democratic victories. In my book, that makes them Republicans.

But, the position of small “L” libertarians on IP is that the advantage of first to have an opportunity to exploit is a sufficient advantage to meet the goals of IP protection.

Remember, as soon as you start talking about rights, you are not a libertarian. Libertarians believe property rights are given by man (not by God) and, since they restrain free-trade, they should only be given to the minimum necessary to ensure future production of IP. They believe the position I wrote above meets that minimum.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 12:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Here are some useful definitions...and I'm generalizing

Libertarian party – No Government (like I said, just generalizing)
Republican party – Limited Government (more generalizing…T.A.R.P.)
Democratic party – Big Government (now this one ain’t much of a stretch)
Libertarian party – No laws, let ‘em fend for themselves
Republican party – We need laws, but jesus christ don’t limit too much freedom
Democratic party – Bring on the laws because we know what’s best for everybody

Within each party there are varying degrees to these wildly oversimplified definitions. Far left, Far right, moderate Republican, Reagan Democrat, and on and on and on. I don’t believe most people who call themselves Libertarian would be very happy with you if you called them Republican and by the same token, most Republicans will not claim the Libertarians and I’m certain they wouldn’t claim the “crazy ones” as you put it because, well, that’s just, crazy!

by KingKorab on Jan 20, 2012 1:28 PM CST up reply actions  

That is more Republican propaganda than anything based upon reality.

Rush Limbaugh would love your definitions. Knowledgeable people would just scoff at that. Regarding your claim the Republicans are for limited government, do you know that this is the 21st Century and they are not your grandfather’s Republican Party any more? The only liberties the Republicans favor are economic liberty for the aristocracy and gun-owner rights. They oppose all other liberties. Liberty makes a society expensive to manage. Republicans want to manage us on the cheap because they think it is their money being spent. Managing us cheaply requires authoritarianism. Instead of TARP as your random example, how about we use the Patriot Act? Then you can prove the exact opposite of your point about limited government.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 2:06 PM CST up reply actions  

I was just generalizing on the internet

TARP, yep
Patriot Act, yep
Medicare Reform, oh my fucking God, yep

The State is a hungry beast and both parties like to feed it.

by KingKorab on Jan 20, 2012 2:17 PM CST up reply actions  

What most Americans do not understand is,

in the beginning, when we first split into a Democratic and a Republican Party, we had a conservative party and a liberal party. The Democrats were the conservative party and the Republicans were the liberal party. The Republicans won most of the elections (between 1860 and 1931, only two Democrats were elected president – and one of them only won because the Republicans split their vote.) After the Dems came to power in 1932, they started to move slightly more liberal to squeeze the Republicans out-of-business. It worked for a long time. But, even with their movement to the “left” nobody considered them to be liberals. For example, even as late as 1964 presidential election, it was the liberal Goldwater against the conservative LBJ.

After having taken a beating for about 40 years, in the mid-1970s the Republicans changed their positions on many major issues (becoming vastly more conservative/authoritarian/paternalistic). Concurrently, they started pointing their fingers at Democrats and calling them liberals. The point is, while the Republicans certainly became more authoritarian, it really did not change the fact the Democrats are not liberals. The Democrats were in the same (authoritarian) place before and after the Republicans made-over their platform. Merely changing their name does not really change their place on the political spectrum. In fact, by calling the Democrats a liberal party, one is really removing the true meaning of the word liberal (and its concurrent political philosophy) from our discourse.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 3:01 PM CST up reply actions  

That sound you just heard

were Barry Goldwater and Lyndon Johnson rolling over in their graves!

by KingKorab on Jan 20, 2012 3:23 PM CST up reply actions  

No.

That is exactly where you are wrong. Barry proudly claimed to be a liberal ‘til his dying breath. And, LBJ’s political descendants were the first Democrats to move into the Republican Party when it became conservative (think: John Connolly).

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 3:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Most would say Barry Goldwater

was the founder of the modern conservative movement. If his last dying breath was, “I’m a liberal”, than he clearly did not know the modern meaning of each of the terms, regardless of their lineage.

by KingKorab on Jan 20, 2012 3:45 PM CST up reply actions  

I believe it was in his later years

and after he was out of office that Goldwater became liberal.
In the early 60s, he was anti-union, claimed that he would use nuclear weapons and voted no on the Civil Rights Act.

Maybe, just once, someone will call me 'Sir' without adding, 'You're making a scene."

by cdz3210 on Jan 20, 2012 3:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Anti-union is a philosophically liberal position.

Pro-union is a philosophically authoritarian position. Using nuclear weapons is neither philosophically liberal nor authoritarian – it would depend who they were being used for or against. Barry Goldwater did not hold a position from which he could vote on the Civil Rights Act one way or the other. Besides, rarely is any Congressional bill exclusively liberal or authoritarian. Before a person’s philosophy can be determined by their position on a Congressional bill, one would have to know specifically why they were for or against it.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 4:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Since he was a Senator

at the time that the Civil Rights Act was voted on, I’m not sure what you mean by saying he did not hold a position from which he could vote on the Civil Rights Act.
Either and or, because of my parent’s reaction to LBJ winning the 64 election, Goldwater’s views back then had to be what is consider conservative today. (I know not exactly fact based but if you sat in a room with my parents, you’d understand)

Maybe, just once, someone will call me 'Sir' without adding, 'You're making a scene."

by cdz3210 on Jan 20, 2012 4:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes,

but that is the problem with using “conservative” to define a political position. It is not a place on the spectrum. It is merely a direction in which one would like the paradigm to move.

A conservative in a previously liberal society that is becoming more authoritarian would also be a liberal. A conservative in a country that was authoritiarian and is becoming more liberal would be an authoritarian.

As the direction in which our paradigm shift was occurring changed 180 degrees in the mid-70s, so did the meaning of the word conservative change 180 degrees. Anyone who thinks the word meant the same then and now is simply not paying attention.

Go read something about politics that was written back in the 1920s or 1930s. They constantly refer to the conservative NY Times. Today, all we hear about is the liberal NY Times. Yet, the position of the editorial board of the NY Times has changed very little since then.

And yes, I would understand what your parents are saying, but I would disagree. Goldwater’s position is most reflected today in Ron Paul’s position. While Paul is a holdout by thinking he is a conservative, the vast majority of Republican Conservatives do not agree. Did you not see his positions being consistently booed at Republican debates?

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 4:49 PM CST up reply actions  

I stay away from watching the

single party debates. Republican or Democrat, I find the spectacle of it all to be a bit ridiculous. What I usually do is watch a summary and/or read about the following morning

Maybe, just once, someone will call me 'Sir' without adding, 'You're making a scene."

by cdz3210 on Jan 20, 2012 4:59 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm a big fan of sit-coms.

I think that’s what I like about the debates. Reality sit-com TV.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 5:24 PM CST up reply actions  

I know what you mean

I saw John King’s opening question to Gingrich. What a stupid way to start things off.

Maybe, just once, someone will call me 'Sir' without adding, 'You're making a scene."

by cdz3210 on Jan 20, 2012 5:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Wow dude.

Did not know the modern meaning or did not accept the new definitions invented by the then-newly-created Wall Street/Christian Fundamentalist coalition?

For a long time in this country, the liberals (both economic and social liberals) were aligned in one party – the Republican Party.

All the conservatives/authoritarians/paternalists (Socialist, Communists, Christian Fundamentalists, Secular do-gooders, etc.) were aligned in the other – the Democratic Party.

With that split, the Republicans won the vast majority of the elections. None of the conservatives could get their way. The liberals had to be split. The far-right wing media came up with a method to accomplish that. They would define “liberal” right out of our language by giving it a new meaning (synonymous with socialist) and not leaving any word to describe real liberals. The authoritarian wing of the Democratic party wholeheartedly approved. They had to get rid of the liberals to get their way also.

Of the 6 billion people on Earth, maybe 200 million of them accept the new-fangled definition. Barry Goldwater was not one of them. He saw the game they were playing. He would roll over in his grave if he read what you wrote.

In the late 90s, Goldwater endorsed a Democrat for Congress from Arizona. The Republican Party had a problem with that since their building was called the Goldwater Building. They told him he had to change his endorsement or they would take his name off their building. He responded, “let me get my ladder and give you a hand.” So much for your theory.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 4:03 PM CST up reply actions  

You may not like the modern definitions

but they exist. Goldwater calling himself a liberal was merely a tweak (or middle finger) to a political party that abandoned his ideals.

by KingKorab on Jan 20, 2012 4:13 PM CST up reply actions  

I guess if your group

wants to invent weird definitions and pretend the world agrees with them, I cannot stop you because I am a liberal.

BTW – do you realize you are simultaneously arguing that is he is a conservative but that he doesn’t agree with conservatives? That’s the problem with your new language. It leaves the most accepted political position in this country completely undefined.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 4:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Just to clarify

I am not a member of the media.

Let’s remove the labels and seek simple clarity. You are given a vote in the 1964 presidential election. Will you cast your vote for Goldwater or Johnson?

by KingKorab on Jan 20, 2012 10:43 PM CST up reply actions  

I wouldn't say your comment does anything to improve "what most Americans do not understand"

Have you ever even heard of Robert Taft or Colonel McCormick?

Did you know tha William F. Buckley wrote “Up From Liberalism” in 1959?

We like our people!

by cliffkoroll on Jan 20, 2012 4:41 PM CST up reply actions  

No

Taft and McCormick were Republican stalwarts. No one would mistake them for liberals.

Buckley was writing against “me too-ism” among the liberal wing of the Republican Party, which aped the liberal Democrats. Outside the South, most Democrats considered themselves liberal at the time. There weren’t a lot of conservatives around and, again outside the South, they were overwhelmingly Republican. Liberalism was the dominant political philosophy at the time and the Democrats were the dominant political party.

Goldwater, I am sure, was using “liberal” in the classical, European sense. Milton Friedman also thought of himself as a “liberal” in this sense, which is really akin to what Americans call Libertarian, and, I’m sure you’ll agree, a far cry from the American vernacular use of ‘liberal’.

We like our people!

by cliffkoroll on Jan 20, 2012 5:25 PM CST up reply actions  

liberal economics...

in an international sense, liberalism tends to explain Friedman quite well. That’s without a doubt. I doubt stanforfon would argue that point.

I’d also venture to say that the most liberal factions in the 19th – mid-20th century were Republicans. They were the ones who pushed women’s suffrage and other progressive ideals. Northern Republicans have become today’s “liberals” while Dixicrats have become the backbone to today’s GOP southern strategy.

by aeroplane on Jan 20, 2012 5:58 PM CST up reply actions  

I learned most of my econ

at Stanford from former members of Reagan’s econ team. I didn’t always agree but I didn’t always disagree. Their biggest fault was their failure to incorporate real world realities into their economic theories.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 6:07 PM CST up reply actions  

Dude -

you need a serious history lesson. Almost everything you wrote is incorrect. I think your mistake comes from your failure to understand your “classic European” definition of liberal was the only one that existed and was the one we used in this country until the late 1970s. Lincoln, McCormack, the Trib were considered the bastions of liberalism. The current conservative definition did not even begin to come into use until the cable TV preachers started it circa 1978. The Republicans did not become conservatives until the fundamentalists joined the party. The fundamentalists were founding members of the post-bellum Democratic Party.

Go look at an electoral map of the 1924 or 1928 presidential election and compare it to the elections of 2000 and 2004. You will see how America’s political parties completely flip-flopped. Clearly, the philosophies of the people/families did not change diametrically. A southern racist in 1925 believes the same thing as a Southern racist today. Yet, in 1925 he would have been a Democrat while in 2005 he would have been a Republican. It is the parties that have switched places.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 6:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Taft

McCormick

You might want to request a refund from Stanford.

We like our people!

by cliffkoroll on Jan 20, 2012 11:24 PM CST up reply actions  

I couldn't find this thread before.

Hey Cliff this guy is pretty funny. Dude doesn’t know the difference between Liberal and Libertarian but that isn’t stopping him from lecturing people on politics. And he tells you, you need a history lesson. Pretty funny stuff.

And Ron one thing. You are talking to people who were alive in the 1970’s and trying to tell them what they meant by the terms they were using at the time. Not really sure you can be more arrogant than that…

by DaleHalas on Jan 21, 2012 4:19 PM CST up reply actions  

I like to be civil in the type of discussion, you get more out of them I think (at least I do)

But I would have to agree, lecturing myself (and Cliff) on politics, yet does not understand the position of those he is lecturing, but stating he knows it by fact. For somebody who did get educated, I do find him to have a very narrow perspective, if you do not see how he does, you are narrow minded, ignorant or your opinion is ridiculous.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 21, 2012 5:14 PM CST up reply actions  

Then they'd have to be called the Cardina

I wanted the Packers to win the Super Bowl, Megan!

by hairhelmet on Jan 21, 2012 6:53 PM CST up reply actions  

It's more like...

Republican – Limited federal government if you’re white, straight, and wealthy.
Democratic – Mostly the same as Republican but not as loud.

I am a meat popsicle
Negligent caretaker of SCH for Dummies
SCH's resident 8 year old

by LanceFister3 on Jan 20, 2012 2:08 PM CST up reply actions  

It's more like...

Republicans think everyone should take care of themselves.
Democrats think everyone should take care of everyone.

The truth, of course, is somewhere in-between.

We like our people!

by cliffkoroll on Jan 20, 2012 2:14 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think that is a fair representation.

First, for the most part, Democrats are far more in the middle than you give them credit for. A far cry from the Rupert Murdoch inspired version you present.

Second, the Fundamentalist Christians are Republicans and they certainly believe in an obligation to take care of others (if nothing else, to get them to believe in Jesus so they are saved). In fact, that is why they were Democrats until the Republicans conceded a little to them).

Third, remember the Republicans who believe everyone should take care of themselves only came to that conclusion after they found out they would be one of the “haves” and not one of the “have-nots.” I wonder what they would believe if they had to form an opinion before they knew what their economic status would be?

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 3:14 PM CST up reply actions  

I wish there weren't so many impoverished democratic politicians.

That haves and have-nots argument is stale considering most politicians are multimillionaires.

See if you can guess what I am now.

by IndianHeadCrest on Jan 20, 2012 3:19 PM CST up reply actions  

I think the people here

are intelligent enough not to buy-into your ad hominem argument. You need to be posting elsewhere if you want to sell that trash.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 3:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Maybe I'm missing something

but what ad hominem argument are you talking about?

I am a meat popsicle
Negligent caretaker of SCH for Dummies
SCH's resident 8 year old

by LanceFister3 on Jan 20, 2012 3:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Arguing against the philosophical beliefs

of Democratic officials merely by pointing out their personal wealth. A person’s wealth is not an argument against a their philosophical position. It is merely character bashing.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 4:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Sure, you can call them hypocrites.

I cannot say that I necessarily disagree with that. Still, it does not reflect on the correctness or incorrectness of the philosophical position. That is why it is an ad hominem argument.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 4:23 PM CST up reply actions  

However, my comment was directed at your implication

(see my comment below) rather than any general philosophical position.

See if you can guess what I am now.

by IndianHeadCrest on Jan 20, 2012 4:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Except

my statement was about Democrats. Your statement was about a limited sub-group of Democrats. You tried to counter my claim with a character argument against the sub-group.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 4:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Fair enough

But then your generalization of the Republicans as the party of “haves” is a bit ridiculous considering many with Republican/conservative views are not wealthy or downright poor.

See if you can guess what I am now.

by IndianHeadCrest on Jan 20, 2012 4:35 PM CST up reply actions  

I was more referring to

those who are the beneficiaries of their policies – not who supports those positions.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 4:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Which policies?

Fiscal or social?

See if you can guess what I am now.

by IndianHeadCrest on Jan 20, 2012 4:41 PM CST up reply actions  

I think all their policies

favor the “haves.” Economic freedom certainly favors the “haves.” Lack of social liberty also favors the “haves” because allowing liberalism is expensive and the “haves” are the ones who have to pay for management of our society.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 5:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Not to pick nits

but how do reconcile their perceived lack of social liberties with their stance on the 2nd Amendment?

See if you can guess what I am now.

by IndianHeadCrest on Jan 20, 2012 6:18 PM CST up reply actions  

They were one

single-dimension voting block short of competing with the Democrats. Believe me, as soon as the aristocrats can stay in power and also take away the guns, the guns will be gone.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 6:50 PM CST up reply actions  

FUCK 'em

I really wish people would learn about why that was seen as a fundamental right and deemed worthy of such protections. Not say it was formed from some belief they have about guns or why or why not they should be allowed.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 6:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Don't believe

that Democrats are as anti-gun as the right wing media wants you to believe. They created that argument out of whole cloth when they needed to attract the gun-owners to their party. While we may want to limit people walking around the streets carrying cheap hand guns, don’t buy into the slippery slope that we do not favor a family having safely-stored guns in their homes for protection (from intruders, the government, whatever).

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 7:07 PM CST up reply actions  

I wasn't going into that

more the mentality of those who say “the second amendment is for hunting” or “the second amendment did not mean semi-automatic”. Those are ignorant positions, ignorant to the reason it was protected. If you do like it, fine say that, don’t try to say it means something it did not.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 7:10 PM CST up reply actions  

You are falling into the trap

I mentioned earlier. You are attributing extremist views to mainstream Democrats. Those are the positions of Democrats that are highlighted by the Republican media. They are not the position of most Democrats. I don’t want people walking around the streets with AK-47s but if I am going to have a gun in my home for protection, it sure as hell is going to be an Uzi.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 7:31 PM CST up reply actions  

I am not trying to associate it with any party

Just people on both sides who say crap like that

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 7:36 PM CST up reply actions  

2nd ammendment...

question for stanforddan. Has it’s interpretation changed throughout history?

by aeroplane on Jan 20, 2012 7:37 PM CST up reply actions  

I have taken courses

in great detail about every single aspect of the Constitution except two – the 2nd and 3rd Amendments. So, I cannot really answer your question. But, the 2nd Amendment does make it a point to explicitly recognized that a “well-regulated militia” is a component of their understanding of what they were protecting. Today’s Court does not recognize the existence or any application of that clause. So, while I cannot tell you how its application or interpretation has changed, surely its interpretation is different today than it was back then.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 7:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Horse Shit on your statement!

What is “Well Regulated”
What is the “Militia”
What about the part of a free and secure state and the right of the people shall not be infringed?

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 7:48 PM CST up reply actions  

None should be

Well regulated, meant, Well working, capable, responsive, etc…

The Militia WAS the people, so in other words

A Well working Militia of the the people being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 7:56 PM CST up reply actions  

So

Militia = weapon
and
Well-regulated = in proper working order?

Your going to need to show me some support for that.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 8:02 PM CST up reply actions  

I saw that coming next,

No on Militia = People, specifically able bodied people.

Here are couple instances. In a debate (I can’t recall which) in NY, it was asked how could NY defend itself, the response was, “NY has a militia of 500,000” which at that time was just about the number of all able bodies people in the state. More of these types of examples occur in many debates and writings.

Well-Working, trace the influneces on the amendment, the proposals from the States, and States Bills of Rights Like VA. Also numerous periodicals use the term well regulated in this sense, such as “for a sale, well-regulated watches for sale” Does regulated by Govt. make sense, since their were none in place. You can find examples like this in the time as well if you look.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 8:07 PM CST up reply actions  

Even if I buy

that a well-regulated machine means “working properly,” I do not buy that definition applies to a group of people. Clearly a group of armed people is what is meant by a militia. So you have, "a well-regulated group of armed people being necessary to protect the state . . . their right to bear arms cannot be taken away.

So, tell me how that means we have to let them carry cheap handguns on city streets.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 8:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Because it is the public square

Where all mutual and individual rights are protected. Shall not be infringed, means IOW, shall not be limited or withheld. You and I may not like it, but that is what it meant. When this was proposed, drafted and ratified it was not uncommon for that to occur, but also it did NOT apply to the states until 1868 with the 14th amendment.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 8:26 PM CST up reply actions  

As for a group of people, I urge you to learn its history.

Starting with the mercantilist policies from 1760 and how it led to the crown attempting to disarm the Colonists from 1768-1774. the Colonists. As well as remember what lead to Concord and Lexington, WHY were the “The British Coming”?

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 8:32 PM CST up reply actions  

You are forcing a definition

to fit a belief rather than trying to understand what goal the Amendment was meant to protect. I can create a way to justify almost anything by those words and your forced interpretation is no better or worse than any other. That is your methodology is wrong.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 8:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Quite the opposite

I was more along the lines of “regulate” when I started looking into it, and Militia being like the National Gaurd.

These are two examples, I did not come to this conclusion based on a couple instances, but the entire argument and what lead to them being made.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 8:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Tired of the FAR right hand posts

If you can, read as much as you can on the Founding from their mouths (words), not from someone else like me or a professor, it will be eye opening. Do not limit to the “big” things like the Federalists, read the debates in the States and the Anti-Federalists the debates in Congress during the BOR drafting and subsequent ratification debates. It is incredible of how much they actually DID account for future things, and the motives behind so much. I went in with many preconceived notions (I did not know I had), that just got destroyed by reading what they said, and not what historians wrote.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 8:38 PM CST up reply actions  

I've read Farrands

all four volumes, cover to cover. Is that sufficient?

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 8:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Not even close! lol

Farrands does not touch the States debates(enough). They are a bitch to find, but you can find them. I would also say trace each provision to its root, (if you have years to spare! lol). NOT one was put in arbitrarily without and Farrands does not cover this at all.

But no Farrands is a very good start, but only the tip. Have you gone over Elliots?

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 8:44 PM CST up reply actions  

I've read and studied

each of the federalist papers and the compilation they call the anti-federalist papers. Am I getting closer?

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 8:56 PM CST up reply actions  

I just love learning this subject,

If it relates to it, I’ll read it (source document wise). I go back as far as I can to understand the “Why” it was needed or desired in the first place.

For instance I wrote 70 pages just on the term “general welfare” only from the AOC to Post-Ratification writings.

After the NTSB and the Airport checks occurred, I researched the 4th Amendment, and it was were I learned about the Courts of Star Chamber, and Writ of Assistances and the abuses it made and how it affected the desire (among other things) for such specific protections in the 4th and 5th Amendments.

This is the depth I go into the subject. Not many people at all even desire to go as far as I do. To me it is not just the arguments of the period that are important, but everything that made it a want-desire-necessity to have it even debated and included I want to know as well.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 9:23 PM CST up reply actions  

The truth of the matter is

you can have any position you want. That is not the immediate problem. The issue is your justification is ridiculous. Taking some words and applying meanings to them while not doing the same for other words and then claiming the positions held in those instances are completely analogous to completely different situations merely in order to force them to agree with your pre-formed opinion is ridiculous and not very persuasive.

For example, since we are substituting words with their 18th Century meanings, how about we substitute the word “musket” for the word “arms”? So, all you know is how the FF felt about the right to bear muskets (a weapon that was as potentially dangerous to the shooter as the shootee.) Now you are trying to tell me it is beyond question that person would feel the exact same way if the weapon were an UZI, a SAM or an Abrams M1-A1 tank. I find that close to unbelievable.

Instead of using language and logical trickery to force their views to fit with your preconceived notions, there is a proper way to use the FF. Study their philosophies. Study their perspectives on the balance between government power and individual rights. Study their views on the deity and its relationship with man. Study their views on economics. Then apply what you know of those and what you learn from those to the issues of today.

When you want to explain to me why you believe we have no right to prevent public brandishing of handguns or Uzis and you can explain your position philosophically, religiously or economically, I am happy to listen. You might even convince me to alter my position. But, the argument you are presently making, that we cannot outlaw that stuff because of your forced rendering of something that was written 200 years ago by people who never remotely contemplated the present situation is utterly unconvincing to anybody but the choir – and they are already on your side.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 10:12 PM CST up reply actions  

I guess to end all of this
that we cannot outlaw that stuff because of your forced rendering of something that was written 200 years ago by people who never remotely contemplated the present situation is utterly unconvincing to anybody but the choir

Again we will have to simply disagree. Because I do feel the words of 230+ years ago should be applied as intended, and though the details may not be conceivable, the purpose is unchanged regardless of the passage of time.

I do study their philosophy, how could I not if I desire to understand the motives?

In the end we just have to disagree. You claim I have preconceived notions, and I could just as easily say the same for you, by dismissing what is written and clear in favor of another conflicting view.

I want the meaning, what do the words mean. I am not selecting what words I analogize to a modern usage of the word, I apply all as I understand them from the period. We may disagree in the end usage, but that does not mean I am being selective in choosing.

What choir am I preaching too, which one am I listening too? I really wish we could discuss this in person with sources and such, because this format is okay for debate, but gets difficult beyond it (like this).

We disagree, there is nothing wrong with this and does not mean the other has to be skewing things intentionally to one favor.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 10:23 PM CST up reply actions  

I am looking a 4 shelves of books I have printed

And that I have read, and that does not include the E-docs I did not print.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 8:45 PM CST up reply actions  

I've got at least that many shelves

of law school case books with first person explanations of their positions by every influential justice and judge, including the positions of the various executive branches and dissents on more issues than you even know there are issues. That does not count the thousands of judicial decisions I have read since I started practicing. Closer?

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 9:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Okay now you are being a smartass

We view things from differing opening perspectives, which is fine. We will not see eye to eye, which is fine as well. No harm in not agreeing.

As for Law books on what others think, I am cautious on. I read opinions to see their perspective, it does not mean it is what I will accept, even by Justices I usually agree with.

When ever I am unsure of a Constitutional application, I always refer back to the provisions formation, and what the motivation was and how it was understood by those who ratified it. That is what I base my opinion on its application on, even if I do not agree with what it means in the end result.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 9:16 PM CST up reply actions  

We don't need to see eye to eye

Your a Pragamatist, I am an Originalist. Great, opposing views, gotta love that freedom! We simply have different starting points and understandings.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 8:48 PM CST up reply actions  

How exactly is that ad hominem?

You state The Republican Party is that of the “haves” (wealthy), thus implying the Democratic Party are the “have-nots” (common). I think people here are intelligent enough to not buy into that.

See if you can guess what I am now.

by IndianHeadCrest on Jan 20, 2012 3:43 PM CST up reply actions  

my favorite explanation of the difference between Republicans and Democrats

“The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.”

I am a meat popsicle
Negligent caretaker of SCH for Dummies
SCH's resident 8 year old

by LanceFister3 on Jan 20, 2012 3:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Yep. They all suck

See if you can guess what I am now.

by IndianHeadCrest on Jan 20, 2012 3:54 PM CST up reply actions  

wow

And I thought the generalization I made admits of no exceptions. You sure showed me.

We like our people!

by cliffkoroll on Jan 20, 2012 4:38 PM CST up reply actions  

I have to completely disagree with your assessment of libertarian

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 1:31 PM CST up reply actions  

WTF are you talking about?

What type of Libertarian are you describing, because I am lost? The kind I am referring to are of the Locke and Jeffersonian type, where ALL personnel property is at the disposal of the individual as they see fit, including intellectual.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 3:25 PM CST up reply actions  

And that's the issue.

You start with the supposition that Locke is a liberal. That is the Republican Libertarian position. I do not believe Locke was a liberal. Any theory that starts with the assumption that I have a pre-determined contract with the rest of society (whether he is right or wrong), is certainly not a liberal position. As far as I am concerned, the effect Locke had on Jefferson was to tone down his liberalism.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 3:42 PM CST up reply actions  

At this point we are really arguing symantics

We have differing perceptions of words or perhaps how they were used at various times. I am not sure how you got Locke=Liberal from me, I do not recall making that direct connection, perhaps implied though.

Regardless of that. Your presentation of both Liberal and Republican positions/motivations is greatly biased and non-reflective and IMO slanders many who may associate themselves as such. For being and educated person, your presentation of how the opposing POV view things is greatly flawed, and is non representative of their position at all, and frankly it can be seen as insulting for you to advocate that IS their beliefs or position then commence to criticizing them on your own flawed perception. I would argue I could present a more reflective view point of those I disagree with then you have with those you disagree with. Your presentations are extraordinarily biased to say the least.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 5:07 PM CST up reply actions  

How about

“the kind [of Libertarians] I am referring to are the Locke and Jefferson type.”

Does that do it?

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 5:27 PM CST up reply actions  

I rather enjoy the discussion overall

I really do not desire to get snippy, and already have. And if you are referring to them as being anti-intellectual property you are mistaken.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 5:31 PM CST up reply actions  

No, no, no.

I don’t suspect IP was that much of an issue back then. Today’s Libertarians are anti-IP. Remember, their philosophical belief is to maximize the free market. Yet, they also believe in the need to reward the production of IP because IP has inherent value to human kind and the only way we can get it in a free market is if it is rewarded. So, the optimum libertarian position is to protect IP to the minimum amount necessary to ensure the future production of quality IP.

A producer of IP gets a natural advantage – power to be first in the market. If the IP is valuable and the producer plays his cards right, that is all the head start he should need. That opportunity should also provide enough incentive to assure the future production of IP. Any government intervention beyond that limits the free market. Therefore, a true philosophical libertarian would oppose such government intervention.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 5:41 PM CST up reply actions  

And when I say anti-IP

I mean against using government power to protect it.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 5:43 PM CST up reply actions  

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this.

It was an issue back then, Jefferson and Franklin among others were inventors who seeked to profit on their invention (and did at times), and were also protective in their IP the designs of many (not all) of their inventions.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 5:49 PM CST up reply actions  

I've read a lot of Jefferson

but I do not recall anything specific about IP. I just didn’t want to make things up.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 7:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Look at is actions in this case, more so like Montecello

He does write about it, it would take some time for me to find a few quotes, but he does believe in the protection of writings and patents and such.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 7:57 PM CST up reply actions  

No doubt.

As I wrote, so does a libertarian. It’s a question of degrees.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 8:03 PM CST up reply actions  

While there certainly are

a plethora of views within the group that identifies themselves as Republicans/Conservatives, there is also a cumulative end result of their views that is highly relevant to our lives – the philosophical views they have seated on the Supreme Court. They have placed a hard and fast philosophically consistent majority on the Court (of very young people). They will define our political and economic paradigm for the next 35 years.

First of all, that is outrageous. Second, yes, I hold every Republican voter responsible for that because, regardless of what they say they believe, they created the monster.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 5:32 PM CST up reply actions  

BOTH PARTIES CREATED THIS MONSTER

Nobody is blameless of the mess we are in today, it has brewing for generations.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 5:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Actually, millenia.

That’s why I mostly study the transition to neolithic – the source of the problem.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 5:44 PM CST up reply actions  

I go back as far as the Magna Carta in Depth

But also am familiar with Greek and Roman republics and Democracies, as well as the Dutch Republic. I just could not dedicate the time required to trace the genesis of every differing or even major philosophies.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 5:51 PM CST up reply actions  

If you ever want to go completely

out of the modern paradigm, read a book called The Other Side of Eden. Its about the real hunter-gatherer paradigm; not the one we falsely attribute to them. Not a big seller. I found it in a $4 bin. Most interesting book I ever read.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 6:19 PM CST up reply actions  

I suggest you read the 5,000 year leap.

It is not all in depth and I do have some issue with it, but it helps give a perceptive from my POV in some regards.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 6:23 PM CST up reply actions  

I have the book in my lap

But it has no attributed author I can see???

It is put out by NCCS (who they are)

The author may be Skousen, it is a name on the binding in the typical location, but no copyright or manufacturing page is included. weird??? first page in the book is page 1, last page is the end of references.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 7:01 PM CST up reply actions  

What is missing?

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 7:49 PM CST up reply actions  

The long thing

that ended with the Court being a monster.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 7:55 PM CST up reply actions  

Locke was a liberal

As was Hobbes, Rousseau, Hume- all the Enlightenment philosophers basically.

The basis used by all of these thinkers to defend civil society was by an “appeal to reason” starting from a blank slate.

Conservative thinkers at the time, like Burke, defended civil society by an “appeal to tradition”.

So, a liberal is apt to approach a problem from first principles and reason things out from the ground up.

A conservative is biased in favor of “we’ve always done it that way”.

As a simple example, liberals were more inclined to invent something rational like the metric system from scratch, while conservatives would hew to the traditional, irrational inherited system of weights and measures.

Less benign liberal ideas, like reinventing society from scratch based on first principles, sometimes have less benign results (looking at you Cambodia.)

We like our people!

by cliffkoroll on Jan 20, 2012 5:40 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't agree with your definitions at all.

Reason is reason. It is a method of thinking. Liberalism is liberalism. It is a belief in what is the proper inter-relationship for a society. There are certainly very rational arguments in favor of authoritarianism just as there are people to whom liberalism is more of a belief than anything they have really thought through.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 5:48 PM CST up reply actions  

One of the biggest thing I do not like about the interweb is debate

It at times is very hard (especially for me) to fully articulate or translate beliefs POV and such. You can write a simpled down view and not get the point across as desired, and it can be very difficult to fully explain a more complex or larger idea.

I have totally made myself to be an uneducated cook who does not listen or care for other points of view, which except the potential cook part, could not be further from the truth.

But I will say, I do always love civil or cordial discourse and exchange of points of view and ideas, like what happened here.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 1:38 PM CST up reply actions  

*kook

(just in case people think you’re a chef :)

by Katherine215 on Jan 20, 2012 1:39 PM CST up reply actions  

dammit

I was getting hungry

See if you can guess what I am now.

by IndianHeadCrest on Jan 20, 2012 1:46 PM CST up reply actions  

My spelling sucks,

Yes it does!

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 3:27 PM CST up reply actions  

If you are going to call an entire political group of people crazy and duped

Then you are a moron and I can call you that. And you don’t have any idea what a libertarian is, big L or little l not withstanding. Ayn Rand, as an example, believed in Intellectual Property.

Nice to know your political views are as ignorant as your hockey views. And before the mods come in, if this goofball can call me, personally, crazy and somebody that is “duped”, I can call him a moron.

by DaleHalas on Jan 20, 2012 2:11 PM CST up reply actions  

As far as I am concerned, you can call me anything you want.

Any Rand is the perfect example of a Republican libertarian. First she buys into the Republican paradigm then espouses libertarianism within its confines. A real libertarian does not begin their argument from inside the box.

When a group of people claims they are for maximized freedom but consistently support candidates who are taking away freedom at a frightening rate yet they continue to maintain they are the one’s in favor of liberty, either they are duped or they are crazy.

by stanfordron on Jan 20, 2012 3:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Well for one, I do not

Two, one of the major problems with candidates is too often both candidates seek in some form to do this, their isn’t another viable option. At this point many “chose the lesser of two evils” in their view. In this instance I do not vote, I always vote for a candidate, never against one.

When the choice is one who wants to take from A, B and C and the other X, Y, Z, it does not necessarily mean that is the full position of those who cast the vote.

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 20, 2012 3:31 PM CST up reply actions  

just leaving the question..

how do you get paid for creating that content?

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 7:59 PM CST up reply actions  

Hi, I'm President Bob LeDonne..........?

"I remember trying to open presents before Daniel because we always got the same presents. I wanted to have the surprise."
— Henrik Sedin

tweet tweet

by eightyseven on Jan 20, 2012 12:22 AM CST up reply actions  

as mike said above: advertisements, promotional purposes and such

But I think that ultimately there needs to be something new, something revolutionary and music artists will eventually figure it out

by robondacob on Jan 19, 2012 10:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Patrons?

Music and art existed long before CDs and digital downloads, It’ll continue to do so long after the record companies go boom… hell maybe we won’t have so much auto tuned gyration of 20 somethings on the radio if some big company is no longer footing the production bills.

Curator of Dark Side of the Five Hole
I like our guys, especially these guys.
Unapologetic apologist for hockey South of the Mason/Dixon

by DesertHawk on Jan 19, 2012 11:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Don't forget PIPA and OPEN too!

Preemptive Palomino, lets talk political stuff elsewhere .
Recovering rec whore, and SCH's resident troll, lemming and bully.
JUNGLE DRUMS!!! JUNGLE DRUMS!!!

by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jan 19, 2012 8:01 PM CST up reply actions  

double entendres?

round here we’re usually happy to get a singler..

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 19, 2012 8:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Just saw #shawfacts

On comcast sportscenter. success.

Uh, we had a slight weapons malfunction, but uh... everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here now, thank you. How are you?

by The Cup And Back Again on Jan 19, 2012 10:10 PM CST reply actions  

What if we come up with a system where everything is controlled by everybody?

You know like COMmunity everything. Everybody would be equal. Nobody would want for anything. The internet would be open. This has surely been tried somewhere and it had to be successful right? Right?

Hold my stones I'm on IR

by laaarmer on Jan 20, 2012 8:31 AM CST reply actions  

We could tend rabbits

and live off the fat of the land.

We like our people!

by cliffkoroll on Jan 20, 2012 9:02 AM CST up reply actions  

Comrade!

See if you can guess what I am now.

by IndianHeadCrest on Jan 20, 2012 11:45 AM CST up reply actions  

I hope this doesn't pass...

Cause if I had to pay for porn, my kid’s college fund would be zero…

by Wanker751 on Jan 20, 2012 8:36 AM CST reply actions  

Hahahaha, +1

With the emergence of youtube and being able to listen to most of an album before making a decision I have bought more music and gone to more concerts in the last few years than ever because I can get an idea if it is “worth it” or not. Especially with the shit they push on FM radio.

by TurdFurgeson on Jan 20, 2012 8:49 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I'm gonna rec that twice.

Once for the comment, and once for the appropriateness of your nametag.

Furious George! What happened to your beautiful face?!?

by AirTrafficAJ on Jan 20, 2012 11:44 AM CST up reply actions  

so...

The Blues have 9 shutouts. The Hawks have zero. American goaltenders have 18 shutouts by my count this year. The guys in indian head sweaters have zip. Dwayne Roloson has a 3.68ga, an .880sv% and has a shutout. The Blackhawks have not one shutout.

While it’s the wins that matter, I want some goose eggs on the opponent score sheets.

by aeroplane on Jan 20, 2012 9:37 AM CST reply actions  

all I ever really cared about was winning games

Fighting stupidity since 1958 (its a much bigger project than originally envisioned).
Confusion will be my epitaph.
It needs more cowbell.

by krome on Jan 20, 2012 12:57 PM CST up reply actions  

amen, brother

"Kevin, You can't play Doom Metal while wearing a scarf"

by mightymike D on Jan 20, 2012 4:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Internet 1 - Congress 0

SOPA/PIPA Indefinitely Shelved After Massive Protest

Maybe, just once, someone will call me 'Sir' without adding, 'You're making a scene."

by cdz3210 on Jan 20, 2012 5:56 PM CST reply actions  

Can't stop now

This post is close to 600 comments. Has to be a record for a non game day thread.

Maybe, just once, someone will call me 'Sir' without adding, 'You're making a scene."

by cdz3210 on Jan 20, 2012 6:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Don't know

We used to have quite a few non game day threads that were huge due to the OT convos.

SCH moderator. I'm the nice one. Really, I am. (you can quit laughing now)

by stacie7 on Jan 20, 2012 6:42 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

True

there were some epic Geek fest in the past.

Maybe, just once, someone will call me 'Sir' without adding, 'You're making a scene."

by cdz3210 on Jan 20, 2012 8:00 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

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